RE: The Moral Argument for God
December 18, 2015 at 12:11 pm
(This post was last modified: December 18, 2015 at 12:12 pm by TheRocketSurgeon.)
What does "objectively moral" mean?
Can anyone tell me? I keep hearing the term, but I can't think of what that might actually be, beyond a meaningless phrase to imply the existence of something that likely does not and cannot exist.
And yes, we are social animals. Our societies determine what is right and wrong behavior, but it's hardly objective, and often wrong. Nature of the beast. We must all decide what is moral for ourselves, lest we agree with some principle (such as the form of slavery described in Leviticus 25:44-46) that is not suited to the empathy in a normal conscience. Humans are capable of both social-program type morality, and of self-determination. Sometimes a person self-determines to do harm, so societies come up with ways to punish and discourage such destructive behaviors. So we do determine morality subjectively, on both a cultural and personal level.
Really, all the phrase "objective morality" does is attempt to assert that there is some universal moral law, as claimed in Romans, which is objectively not a reality when we look at the various definitions of what is moral throughout history and cultural studies. Some are more common than others, like not killing, because they are clearly destructive to societies, but every society has exceptions to the rule. The same is true for all the other items. The demonstration of the pro-slavery verses also demonstrates that even religious morality is not "objective", but shifts with time and cultures.
So the idea that the "Moral Argument" refutes anything is not only ridiculous, it's such an outright and obvious lie that the theist should spot it before making such an assertion contrary to the facts... but they never do. How sad.
Can anyone tell me? I keep hearing the term, but I can't think of what that might actually be, beyond a meaningless phrase to imply the existence of something that likely does not and cannot exist.
And yes, we are social animals. Our societies determine what is right and wrong behavior, but it's hardly objective, and often wrong. Nature of the beast. We must all decide what is moral for ourselves, lest we agree with some principle (such as the form of slavery described in Leviticus 25:44-46) that is not suited to the empathy in a normal conscience. Humans are capable of both social-program type morality, and of self-determination. Sometimes a person self-determines to do harm, so societies come up with ways to punish and discourage such destructive behaviors. So we do determine morality subjectively, on both a cultural and personal level.
Really, all the phrase "objective morality" does is attempt to assert that there is some universal moral law, as claimed in Romans, which is objectively not a reality when we look at the various definitions of what is moral throughout history and cultural studies. Some are more common than others, like not killing, because they are clearly destructive to societies, but every society has exceptions to the rule. The same is true for all the other items. The demonstration of the pro-slavery verses also demonstrates that even religious morality is not "objective", but shifts with time and cultures.
So the idea that the "Moral Argument" refutes anything is not only ridiculous, it's such an outright and obvious lie that the theist should spot it before making such an assertion contrary to the facts... but they never do. How sad.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.