(January 5, 2016 at 11:54 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Interestingly I thought about discussing God working in mysterious ways but figured it would be viewed as a "cop out." Ultimately I choose not to because I think the passage explains God's mysterious ways. It doesn't leave the reader solely with the question "who are you to question me?" It says that He is acting in this way to make Himself known. He is revealing that He is just (wrathful) and that He is merciful.
While I try to not base the foundation of my argumentation on such arguments, I would agree this is in a sense like the "Best of all Possible Worlds defense." I would rather that you consider the passage in Romans 9. It answers the question: How can God who is both just and merciful communicate these attributes to His creation? By creating a world in which good and evil exists, He and His glory are greater. In other words, in a world with only good where all men are saved, the glory and attribute of His justice would be unknown. Similarly in a world with only evil, where all men are condemned, the glory and attribute of His mercy would be unknown.
Couldn't your god do both, though? I mean, couldn't the guy who speaks through revelation and so on just reveal his mercy and justice both, while still having a perfect world where everyone is saved? Isn't that within his power set?
I mean, this is just me accepting your unspoken premise that communicating these two aspects to humanity is necessary, which I don't think is true. What you're essentially saying is that god allows the world to be significantly bad solely for the purposes of letting everyone know how Just he is, which strikes me as nothing but an ego thing, and frightfully immoral at that; he's willing to allow people to suffer just so they all know how cool he is? Why is that something he needs to do? What makes that worth the suffering it causes?
Regarding "mysterious ways" in general, to hit upon another topic, it's not so much a cop out as it is a total non-argument; theists present god's mysterious ways as though they obviate whatever immorality is under discussion, but that's not how it works. "Mysterious ways," just puts the topic outside of the theist's reach, it's just an acknowledgement that the theistic position is that nobody can know why god works this way... which means that they have no reason at all for assuming benevolent intent, nor does anybody have a justifiable reason for believing that god's actions have anything more to them than what the actual evidence indicates, which is that they are immoral or nonsensical.
"Mysterious ways," just puts an end to the conversation. It's not an argument for the theist side.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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