(January 1, 2016 at 4:50 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(December 30, 2015 at 7:28 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The God I serve created you in His image.  "Free-will" included.

When Jesus returns he's going to kill all life and destroy the world.  Since you serve him are you looking forward to help him kill all life on Earth?

(December 7, 2015 at 9:04 am)RobbyPants Wrote: Theist apologists frequently cite free will as being the answer to the problem of evil. It's important that we have the choice to do bad things, even though we're not supposed to do those bad things. So, when people cause problems, we are to blame, even if God could have prevented it.

The problem of this bit of apologetics is it doesn't mesh with the other half of what they claim to believe. It doesn't take good into account. People are always praising God for things that people do. I'm constantly hearing praises for getting a new job, getting better after medical treatment, or doing well on a test after studying. Every single one of these things hinge on human action. When people do good things, they say it is because of God and not the person (don't want to admit to pride), but it's never God's fault when they do bad things.

So, when everything is going great in the world, apparently God can muck around with that all day long, and anything good that happens ever is because of God. But all the bad stuff is never his fault. That's just us. Their stated belief is that God is such a powerful being that he literally sticks his hands in every facet of life, no matter how small, until it comes to us misbehaving. Then, he takes a strictly hands-off approach, because we need to be free to misbehave. Even more strange is that God gets people jobs, allows medical treatment to work, and lets people recall key facts on tests regardless of their behavior. There seems to be no correlation between a person's behavior and how often God "blesses" them.

If moral autonomy is so precious to the theist apologist, they should stop giving their god credit for the good things people do. I thought people have to be free to make those good choices. This god of special pleading is fatiguing and trite.

Firstly I'd like to say that we, being finite beings with limited minds cannot fully understand an infinite Deity. Secondly, if there is a God, what about the devil? There is a battle between good and evil in the hearts and minds of people on earth. I'm not blaming the devil entirely for people's bad decisions, but there are two sides to the story.

(January 1, 2016 at 8:58 pm)dyresand Wrote:

(January 1, 2016 at 4:50 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: When Jesus returns he's going to kill all life and destroy the world.  Since you serve him are you looking forward to help him kill all life on Earth?

Yeah, what about the devil?

Can god stop him interfering? If so, why doesn't he? By allowing the devil to screw with us, he is endorsing the behaviour.

The devil is simply a scapegoat so that God doesn't have to take responsibility for the "bad" parts. But whoever has ultimate power has ultimate responsibility.

Same copout as with the humans I think Rob, God supposedly gave Satan "Free will" too.

Pah. Free will. Am I ever tired of that excuse. Apparently any amount of atrocity and gross negligence can be balanced by just saying "free will".

Free will to explore more than 0.0000000000001% of the creation that is here just for humans? No. You don't get to choose to do that. How ridiculous would that be?

Free will to rape children? Yes, it's very important this option is available.

(January 4, 2016 at 7:44 pm)Marcus Felix Wrote: Firstly I'd like to say that we, being finite beings with limited minds cannot fully understand an infinite Deity.

That's always been a cop out answer. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's just a "cuz I say so" assertion. No one has ever been able to describe God's mysterious ways; we're just told his ways are mysterious, and that's that. It's a hand wave to remove further scrutiny.

(January 4, 2016 at 7:44 pm)Marcus Felix Wrote: Secondly, if there is a God, what about the devil? There is a battle between good and evil in the hearts and minds of people on earth. I'm not blaming the devil entirely for people's bad decisions, but there are two sides to the story.

My first question would be: why doesn't God stop the devil?

But that's all really missing the point of the OP. The point of the thread is that when we do bad things, we are blamed, because of free will. Yes, people will talk about the deceiver and temptation, but at the end of the day, we get blamed for falling to temptation. Conversely, when we do good things, we aren't praised for it. God gets praised.

This asymmetry is both annoying and also somewhat problematic for the whole problem of evil (hence, my thread title). If God is ultimately responsible for good, why isn't there more good? Any lack of good would, by definition, be God's fault. If the failure to do good is actually our fault, then we should get the credit when we do good.

It's just sloppy apologetics that isn't stitched together very well. One half isn't talking to the other, and it's inconsistent at best, and contradictory at worst.

God puts a "devil glove" on his left hand, smacks you round the face with it, then denies all responsibility.

(January 5, 2016 at 2:11 am)robvalue Wrote: Yeah, what about the devil?

Can god stop him interfering? If so, why doesn't he? By allowing the devil to screw with us, he is endorsing the behaviour.

The devil is simply a scapegoat so that God doesn't have to take responsibility for the "bad" parts. But whoever has ultimate power has ultimate responsibility.

God has a herd of evil angels to do his dirty work.  Remember, when Jesus returns the devil tries to help mankind prevent Jesus from killing all life and destroying the Earth.

Psalm 78:49 (KJV) = "He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them."

(January 1, 2016 at 12:15 am)dyresand Wrote:

(December 30, 2015 at 7:28 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The God I serve created you in His image.  "Free-will" included.

Is >"YOUR"< god >"ALL"< knowing?

Yes

---

(January 1, 2016 at 4:50 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(December 30, 2015 at 7:28 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The God I serve created you in His image.  "Free-will" included.

When Jesus returns he's going to kill all life and destroy the world.  Since you serve him are you looking forward to help him kill all life on Earth?

Where is it written that I am going to help him kill all life on Earth?

---

(January 5, 2016 at 2:11 am)robvalue Wrote: Yeah, what about the devil?

Can god stop him interfering? If so, why doesn't he? By allowing the devil to screw with us, he is endorsing the behaviour.

Given you believe that we should stick to verifiable science (post #58), what is your scientific experiment to verify the above statement?

(January 5, 2016 at 2:11 am)robvalue Wrote: The devil is simply a scapegoat so that God doesn't have to take responsibility for the "bad" parts. But whoever has ultimate power has ultimate responsibility.

And your falsifiable scientific verification for this is?

(January 5, 2016 at 2:11 am)robvalue Wrote: By allowing the devil to screw with us, he is endorsing the behaviour.

But whoever has ultimate power has ultimate responsibility.

I'm starting to feel like a broken record here, but.... what is your scientific verification for the above statements?

---

(January 1, 2016 at 8:58 pm)dyresand Wrote:

That's actually the plan of the unbelieving world at the time.  And the results are...(Revelation 19:11-21)

---

(January 1, 2016 at 11:27 am)RobbyPants Wrote:

(December 28, 2015 at 4:50 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Reading verses 15-18 should lead a person to ask the question in verse 19, "How can He blame us, for who can resist His will?  

The answer is found in verses 20-24.

Two things to take away from this.  First, these are questions of authority.  Who get's the right to decide how something is used?  The maker or the made?  Secondly, it appears God's reason for functioning this way is to demonstrate His wrath, make His power known, and to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy.

Personally, I feel this answer is a bit of a cop out. Now, it might be consistent with what you were saying about both God and us being responsible for doing good, but it still (potentially) results in a situation where God isn't allowing as much good as he could. Saying "who are you to question me!?" is just a misdirection at that point. About the best counter I can see to that would be to assert that God works in [mysterious ways] and that his reasons for holding back are actually more good, and we just don't see it (basically, the Best of all Possible Worlds defense). This, strictly speaking, could be true, but the reasoning is entirely ad hoc. Basically, the answer satisfies the apologist, but not the skeptic.


Anyway, I think you explained your position a lot better now, and it makes sense (well, as much sense as it's going to make to a dirty heathen). Thanks for clarifying. Happy New Year!

Interestingly I thought about discussing God working in mysterious ways but figured it would be viewed as a "cop out."  Ultimately I choose not to because I think the passage explains God's mysterious ways.  It doesn't leave the reader solely with the question "who are you to question me?"  It says that He is acting in this way to make Himself known.  He is revealing that He is just (wrathful) and that He is merciful.

While I try to not base the foundation of my argumentation on such arguments, I would agree this is in a sense like the "Best of all Possible Worlds defense."  I would rather that you consider the passage in Romans 9.  It answers the question:  How can God who is both just and merciful communicate these attributes to His creation?  By creating a world in which good and evil exists, He and His glory are greater.  In other words, in a world with only good where all men are saved, the glory and attribute of His justice would be unknown.  Similarly in a world with only evil, where all men are condemned, the glory and attribute of His mercy would be unknown.  

I would like to add that the conversation we have been having is my heart's desire.  I recognize that we most likely will end our conversation in disagreement.  The hope I have come to have is that conversations can be had with the intention of an honest exchange of ideas, and that we would have dialog.  Thank you for facilitating this, and happy new year to you as well.  

(January 5, 2016 at 8:19 am)RobbyPants Wrote:

(January 4, 2016 at 7:44 pm)Marcus Felix Wrote: Firstly I'd like to say that we, being finite beings with limited minds cannot fully understand an infinite Deity.

That's always been a cop out answer. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's just a "cuz I say so" assertion. No one has ever been able to describe God's mysterious ways; we're just told his ways are mysterious, and that's that. It's a hand wave to remove further scrutiny.

Hopefully from the above explanation you can understand a bit more about God's 'mysterious ways.'  

(January 5, 2016 at 8:19 am)RobbyPants Wrote: My first question would be: why doesn't God stop the devil?

Hopefully from the above explanation you have insight into this question as well.

(January 5, 2016 at 8:19 am)RobbyPants Wrote: This asymmetry is both annoying and also somewhat problematic for the whole problem of evil (hence, my thread title). If God is ultimately responsible for good, why isn't there more good?

Is mercy good?  Yes.  Is justice good?  Yes.  Then whether there is mercy or there is justice there is good, and there is more good to have both than either one or the other.