Seeing red

[The Grand Nudger]

That's what I'm saying.  You could see chaos in say the QM activity in an electronic logic gate, but that chaos is limited in such a way that it is irrelevant-- a gate is just a gate.

We engineer as much as we can out, but there are always edge cases, failure conditions, and unseen events.  "Chaos" isn't something that we -or- computers don't already have to deal with.   It's not irrelevant, even to a gate.  If something goes wrong, something goes wrong, and things go wrong alot.

Are you saying that logic gates are analog?

Yes we make analog logic gates, logic gates can be made out of -anything-.  We've been using analog computing devices for 150 years.......

Okay, this is the point around which we'll form an argument, I guess.

There is no room for argument.  There is such a thing as a random number generator, an actual component...an assembly of gates that will just spit random shit out forever.  That's chaos in computationally accessible little bytes. It exists.  If you think you need chaos for a non-existent ghost to be, then computers can accomplish that already. You don't even need the computer. You and I could argue the ghost all night and all day and that won't change. If the brain is special (and that's all that was, special pleading), it isn't for that reason. As for the ghost who lives in chaos... I've built -alot- of rngs, not a single one of them has ever given me the impression that there was anything residing in them.

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In it's most exotic form, a comp mind could be made out of nothing -but- random number generators wired to each other, a evolved heuristic for staying alive, truly referent to nothing, truly about nothing. Just a temporarily successful series of steps. I hope there's more to us, if for no other reason than that trying to understand the operation of such a system would be futile...it wouldn't work for any reason in particular with regards to itself.