(March 25, 2016 at 7:01 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:(March 25, 2016 at 4:15 pm)RozKek Wrote: I don't understand what you want me to expand on "if you think about it". It's quite simple. Think about if it is logical that the first thing to exist/be is insanely complex with super intelligence, with the ability to do exactly everything, see everything, even change/break the laws of the universe (omnipotent).
"And I am questioning how logical is it?" because many theists seem to think the existence of everything is illogical without a God and I am asking you theists how logical is it that the first thing to exist/be is insanely complex with super intelligence, with the ability to do exactly everything, see everything, even change/break the laws of the universe (omnipotent).
I don't think I can be more clear than that. I want you to answer how logical it is from your perspective, and good points/arguments to why it would be logical, it seems like you're trying to dodge my question.
For that which is self existing (non-contingent), I don't see that there is any logical necessity that this thing be either simple or complex, as it is not dependent on anything else for it's existence. That which is the effect of something else, requires a cause, which is sufficient to explain that effect. If that which is in question, is not the effect of something else, then I don't think we can make any demands as it must be this or that. It would seem to me, that a first cause, must be sufficient to explain everything that came after and that you are working the other way around.
Before I understood what you meant I had to reread it several times because of my not so good english.
But according to my understanding of what you're saying (correct me if I am wrong) doesn't "If that which is in question, is not the effect of something else, then I don't think we can make any demands as it must be this or that." backfire on the theists saying that it is illogical for the universe to exist without a God (or backfire on the "How did the universe come into existence? Where did the first cell/matter come from? Where did the Big Bang come from?" implying that a God must have been the cause.)
Fyi, I wasn't really making a statement I was asking a question to the theists saying that the beginning of the universe without a God is illogical.
