RE: The Problem with Christians
April 9, 2016 at 1:01 pm
(This post was last modified: April 9, 2016 at 1:05 pm by TheRocketSurgeon.)
(April 9, 2016 at 12:41 pm)AAA Wrote: There is a fine line between observations and speculation. Chemistry is not speculative, you can measure amounts of reactants and products and intermediates to develop mechanisms for reactions. Speculative chemistry would be saying that chemicals could get together to form life on their own.
I'm not saying you can't speculate. I'm saying that speculation is not the same as empiricism. You can compare multiple speculations against the evidence to see which one is more likely to have happened. But if you have only have one hypothesis that works after centuries of the brightest people in the world trying to come up with an alternative, then you can reasonably say that it is likely to be true.
Chemistry is not speculative; it's just physics applied to become Atomic Theory, which forms the basis of chemistry.
However, because there are literally billions of ways you can react a few basic chemicals (especially ones involving Carbon), it's hardly surprising that after only a few decades to a century of "modern" chemistry, we haven't nailed down the full process of how life began over four billion years ago. What we HAVE done, amazingly, is to nail down several of the steps of how the precursor chemicals form in the first place (in interstellar cometary ice, which I think is awesome!) and done experiments that show how those chemicals can arrange into higher order complexity, given an energy input and the right conditions.
The very complexity of proteins/enzymes you seem to think is impossible seems to begin to appear any time we even come close to the right conditions. I would be surprised if we have not solved this puzzle within the next 20 years. However, given the fact that we see these reactions happening at all means we are on the right track-- while it is speculative to say that life arose from basic chemical reactions, it's a pretty reasonable conclusion given what we do know.
It's NOT reasonable to say "Well we haven't solved the problem yet, so... magic!"
You're also being unreasonable when you look only at the modern versions of those long-evolved DNA sequences and declare that it's impossible to get from low complexity to what exists now. What you're doing is looking at a fully-constructed cathedral and declaring that it cannot be built because bricks cannot stack on top of one another in that way...ignoring the scaffolding that it took to get the arches and flying buttresses erected, which was then later removed.
DNA works like that, in a population, particularly where duplication mutations (fairly common) are involved, and one of the duplicated genes mutates in a new direction and eventually acquires a new function after numerous generations, while the original gene keeps doing its job. When Michael Behe first proposed some of his "irreducibly complex" systems, biologists (mainly grad students, since PhDs in biochem typically have more important things to do) showed the steps by which the "mousetrap" was built from previously-existing systems. Behe, of course, along with the ID/IC crowd, completely ignored the implications of showing that System A did in fact evolve, even after they claimed ID/IC, and instead moved on to declare that System B could not have evolved. So the teams solved that one. And now it's System C. Really, guys?
When pressed, on the stand, in the Dover case, Behe admitted he had not read the dozens of papers which showed the things he was claiming (under oath!) could not possibly happen did in fact happen. It's the reason one of the most conservative federal judges in that district ruled strongly against the Intelligent Design crowd, in his Opinion. You should read it--no joke, it really goes into detail about why your ideas don't hold water--and cease making arguments that cannot withstand actual scrutiny.
Does evolutionary biology have every single possible issue solved? Of course not. Likely, it never will, as the universe has innumerable mysteries for us to solve. But pointing out that things are really complicated, and we just don't know is not an argument. You may be a biology student, but many of your arguments I've read here make it sound like you're expecting one individual DNA set to evolve sequentially, and that's not how it works. When you've completed your Genetics course, and learned how population genetics work, we can talk about it. But please, check your biases at the door and just learn, while you're paying for college.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.