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Free will
RE: Free will
(May 22, 2016 at 6:20 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It doesn't matter how it is, to me, that there are things which I will do no matter what.  I made no claim, make no claim, and do not need any claim as to a mechanism.  Again, things that I will do no matter what do not seem, to me, like choices - let alone free will.  I have considered your comments.  You know my opinion.

Well, I get that. A thing may happen "no-matter-what" either because it is impossible that it could happen any other way (i.e. a metaphysical necessity), or because relevant conditions determine that this possible thing happens rather than another possible thing (i.e. a contingent act). Consider something that no one disputes as having a free-will:

Fruit trees can make fruit. Can you imagine a set of conditions in which a fruit tree will not make fruit? Can you imagine a set of conditions in which a fruit tree will certainly make fruit?

If you answered yes to both, then a fruit tree's making fruit does not happen by metaphysical necessity. Instead, a fruit tree's making fruit is contingent upon certain conditions. At least one of those conditions (in a theistic reality) is God's creative action. Not only does God concurrently create the conditions necessary for the tree's fruit making, but he also creates the tree in such a way that its fruit making is contingent upon those conditions. 

So, given the conditions being created by a god who knows what he is creating, and given that the tree is being created by him as making fruit contingently, god makes the conditions, and he makes the tree as making the fruit according to those conditions.

Does God know whether or not a particular tree will make fruit at a particular time? Yes. As the immediate creator of the tree, its contingency and the conditions surrounding it, he has immediate and infallible knowledge of the causes and the effects. 

If he knows that the tree will make fruit, it is because he is creating it as making fruit according to the contingency of the tree's fruit making. 

Does his infallible knowledge of what-will-happen mean that the tree makes the fruit necessarily (i.e. it makes the fruit independently from the conditions surrounding it)? No. God's participation does not suddenly remove the contingency, in fact, the contingent nature of the fruit-making is also directly created by god.

So what does this have to do with free-will? If you can't distinguish between necessity and contingency related to god's action, then you certainly can't distinguish between freedom (which requires contingency) and coercion/non-freedom.
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Messages In This Thread
Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 10:55 am
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 26, 2016 at 11:07 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 11:17 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 1, 2016 at 7:53 pm
RE: Free will - by brewer - April 1, 2016 at 9:22 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 1, 2016 at 9:52 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 4, 2016 at 8:05 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 7, 2016 at 7:46 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 8, 2016 at 6:35 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 8, 2016 at 7:08 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 12, 2016 at 6:38 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 12, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - March 26, 2016 at 1:25 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 27, 2016 at 3:24 am
RE: Free will - by Ryantology - March 26, 2016 at 7:47 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 26, 2016 at 11:36 am
RE: Free will - by robvalue - March 26, 2016 at 1:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Excited Penguin - March 26, 2016 at 1:51 pm
RE: Free will - by robvalue - March 26, 2016 at 2:40 pm
RE: Free will - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - March 26, 2016 at 3:01 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 7:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2016 at 8:01 pm
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 1, 2016 at 10:30 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 1, 2016 at 11:11 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2016 at 11:41 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 2, 2016 at 10:07 am
RE: Free will - by JuliaL - April 2, 2016 at 12:08 am
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 2, 2016 at 12:28 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 12:59 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 1:55 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 2:16 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 2:33 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 2:49 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 2:59 am
RE: Free will - by Wyrd of Gawd - April 2, 2016 at 3:12 am
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 2, 2016 at 1:45 am
RE: Free will - by Foxaèr - April 2, 2016 at 3:00 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 2, 2016 at 3:43 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 2, 2016 at 9:37 pm
RE: Free will - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 5:16 pm
RE: Free will - by Jehanne - April 2, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: Free will - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 7:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Jehanne - April 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 3, 2016 at 12:24 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 3, 2016 at 1:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Drich - April 4, 2016 at 8:31 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 4, 2016 at 8:14 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 7, 2016 at 7:41 pm
RE: Free will - by brewer - April 4, 2016 at 9:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Rhondazvous - April 8, 2016 at 7:51 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 16, 2016 at 2:13 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 16, 2016 at 3:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 21, 2016 at 6:41 pm
RE: Free will - by Ryantology - April 17, 2016 at 7:54 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 22, 2016 at 7:21 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 22, 2016 at 7:36 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 24, 2016 at 7:20 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 25, 2016 at 11:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 26, 2016 at 9:36 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 27, 2016 at 11:38 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 29, 2016 at 6:09 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 29, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 6, 2016 at 8:35 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 7, 2016 at 12:04 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 11, 2016 at 6:33 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 7:38 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 13, 2016 at 7:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - April 25, 2016 at 12:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 30, 2016 at 8:56 am
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - April 30, 2016 at 11:45 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 7, 2016 at 8:20 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 7, 2016 at 9:07 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 7, 2016 at 9:56 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 7:52 pm
RE: Free will - by chrisdubbya - May 11, 2016 at 8:10 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 11, 2016 at 11:03 pm
RE: Free will - by robvalue - May 12, 2016 at 4:13 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 22, 2016 at 7:28 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 26, 2016 at 7:05 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 8:41 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 5, 2016 at 6:22 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 8:47 pm
RE: Free will - by ApeNotKillApe - April 26, 2016 at 9:04 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 9:17 pm
RE: Free will - by ApeNotKillApe - April 26, 2016 at 9:48 pm
RE: Free will - by Aroura - April 29, 2016 at 6:46 pm
RE: Free will - by RozKek - April 29, 2016 at 7:18 pm
RE: Free will - by Aroura - April 29, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 29, 2016 at 9:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 5, 2016 at 6:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Mudhammam - May 5, 2016 at 11:30 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 6, 2016 at 9:30 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 7, 2016 at 12:43 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 10, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 12, 2016 at 7:45 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 8:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 11, 2016 at 9:09 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 11:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 12, 2016 at 7:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 14, 2016 at 3:20 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 13, 2016 at 8:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 18, 2016 at 7:12 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 18, 2016 at 11:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 14, 2016 at 3:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 21, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 14, 2016 at 4:58 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 3:21 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 4:51 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 21, 2016 at 4:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 21, 2016 at 6:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 5:13 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 5:58 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 6:45 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 11:19 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 12:26 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 12:37 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 3:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 4:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 4:34 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 5:05 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 5:08 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 11:08 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 11:33 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 12:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 4:38 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 8:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 5:13 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 10:20 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 11:01 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 12:22 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - May 24, 2016 at 1:10 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 1:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 6:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Foxaèr - May 24, 2016 at 7:11 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 7:14 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 8:10 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 12:25 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 22, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 5:02 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 23, 2016 at 9:19 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 1:37 am
RE: Free will - by Spinchance - May 25, 2016 at 5:08 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 7:28 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 25, 2016 at 1:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 25, 2016 at 3:36 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 3:51 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 25, 2016 at 6:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 3:15 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 26, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 3:33 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 3:41 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 29, 2016 at 12:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 3:47 am
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - May 25, 2016 at 3:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 4:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 6:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 6:38 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 7:26 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 7:39 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 7:52 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 8:32 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 8:43 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 28, 2016 at 7:06 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 12:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:23 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:53 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:40 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 4:49 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 5:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 5:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dom.donald - May 26, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 11:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 12:13 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 12:45 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 4:49 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 2:21 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 7:34 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 7:48 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 8:07 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 8:10 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 8:17 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 8:27 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 9:43 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 11:47 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 2:15 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 4:41 pm
Free will - by dom.donald - May 27, 2016 at 10:35 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 10:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 28, 2016 at 12:19 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 28, 2016 at 12:26 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 28, 2016 at 11:55 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 2, 2016 at 7:50 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 7:54 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 12:53 am
RE: Free will - by Foxaèr - June 2, 2016 at 7:59 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 8:15 pm
RE: Free will - by Foxaèr - June 2, 2016 at 8:17 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 9, 2016 at 5:45 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 10, 2016 at 4:16 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 15, 2016 at 6:23 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 9, 2016 at 7:02 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - June 10, 2016 at 6:17 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - June 10, 2016 at 1:04 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - June 10, 2016 at 5:00 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 10, 2016 at 1:19 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 10, 2016 at 2:08 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 10, 2016 at 2:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 10, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Harassed - June 10, 2016 at 5:16 pm
Free will - by dom.donald - June 10, 2016 at 10:15 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 15, 2016 at 6:27 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 15, 2016 at 7:57 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 23, 2016 at 7:47 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 12, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by John V - June 14, 2016 at 8:34 am
RE: Free will - by SofaKingHigh - June 14, 2016 at 8:41 am
RE: Free will - by John V - June 14, 2016 at 10:02 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - June 14, 2016 at 3:53 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 6:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 7:59 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 15, 2016 at 8:02 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 8:03 pm
RE: Free will - by Foxaèr - June 16, 2016 at 12:44 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 12:38 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 10:54 am
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:10 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 12:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 12:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: Free will - by h4ym4n - June 16, 2016 at 1:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 1:37 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 1:40 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 1:53 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 1:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:03 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:06 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:09 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:12 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:14 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:19 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:24 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:39 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:05 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:06 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:22 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:12 pm
RE: Free will - by madog - June 16, 2016 at 3:13 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:40 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:57 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:01 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:10 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 4:19 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:23 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 4:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 5:59 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 4:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 4:27 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:33 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 4:46 pm
RE: Free will - by bennyboy - June 16, 2016 at 6:49 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 8:47 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 23, 2016 at 11:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 26, 2016 at 2:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Ayen - June 25, 2016 at 8:49 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 26, 2016 at 2:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 26, 2016 at 2:44 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 26, 2016 at 2:49 pm

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