Free will

[dyresand]

Then we have no freewill a all knowing god violates free will since said being has foreknowledge and created the scenario we are in right now.
The "free will" you and me would be experiencing right now would be an illusion of free will.The "free will" you and me would be experiencing right now would be an illusion of free will.

Well, I can understand why you might think that, but I am inviting you to consider a more detailed understanding of freedom as well as the relationship between a God who creates and the creation itself. I fully understand that you are not convinced that such a god even exists, so please try to understand that I am happy to speak of god only in a hypothetical manner.

Have you considered the possibility that you are conflating metaphysical necessity with determination?

Okay for one do not use metaphysics.. just don't  because it is a crock of shit now that is done. 
Your god having knowledge or should say being all knowing violates our free will. He/She/It creates the scenario we are in right now 
and has planed out everything down to possible actions we take. That being said is all powerful can give us the illusion that we have free
will but we don't and our actions themselves are predeterministic like this conversation we are having now. If god was simply limited in knowledge
then sure free will can exist a all knowing being cannot allow for free will to exist as it would be a paradox of information. 

The problem is the omniscient paradox you cannot have free will if a all powerful being and all knowing being existed. Because even then it's not really my 
or anyone else's fault we are atheists we are atheists because it was planned like that. Then it becomes a really big moral issue for followers like so 
a person goes around killing people his/her life was already predetermined by a all knowing being for that to happen. So then who is at fault the creator or 
the creation that is the big moral issue when it comes down to it. Blame the creator or blame the creation the person had to choice they were forced to do 
actions that were predetermined from the time they were born to the time they die. Even if you do bring up the metaphysical argument there is still that glaring
fact of the omniscience paradox to deal with.

[Ignorant]

Okay for one do not use metaphysics.. just don't  because it is a crock of shit now that is done. . .The problem is the omniscient paradox you cannot have free will if a all powerful being and all knowing being existed.

I'm sorry. I was operating under the false assumption that this was an open discussion/question. It appears you have already formed your conclusion and are not interested in a discussion of any other conclusion. Thanks for your time, and I apologize if I've wasted it.

[dyresand]

Okay for one do not use metaphysics.. just don't  because it is a crock of shit now that is done. . .The problem is the omniscient paradox you cannot have free will if a all powerful being and all knowing being existed.

I'm sorry. I was operating under the false assumption that this was an open discussion/question. It appears you have already formed your conclusion and are not interested in a discussion of any other conclusion. Thanks for your time, and I apologize if I've wasted it.

It's fine but metaphysics is a whole other question to ask and it get's out of hand.

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure, unless you consider the distinctions I made about an action and the way in which an action obtains. (e.g necessity vs. contingency)

It doesn't matter how it is, to me, that there are things which I will do no matter what.  I made no claim, make no claim, and do not need any claim as to a mechanism. Again, things that I will do no matter what do not seem, to me, like choices - let alone free will.  I have considered your comments.  You know my opinion.

[Ignorant]

It doesn't matter how it is, to me, that there are things which I will do no matter what.  I made no claim, make no claim, and do not need any claim as to a mechanism.  Again, things that I will do no matter what do not seem, to me, like choices - let alone free will.  I have considered your comments.  You know my opinion.

Well, I get that. A thing may happen "no-matter-what" either because it is impossible that it could happen any other way (i.e. a metaphysical necessity), or because relevant conditions determine that this possible thing happens rather than another possible thing (i.e. a contingent act). Consider something that no one disputes as having a free-will:

Fruit trees can make fruit. Can you imagine a set of conditions in which a fruit tree will not make fruit? Can you imagine a set of conditions in which a fruit tree will certainly make fruit?

If you answered yes to both, then a fruit tree's making fruit does not happen by metaphysical necessity. Instead, a fruit tree's making fruit is contingent upon certain conditions. At least one of those conditions (in a theistic reality) is God's creative action. Not only does God concurrently create the conditions necessary for the tree's fruit making, but he also creates the tree in such a way that its fruit making is contingent upon those conditions. 

So, given the conditions being created by a god who knows what he is creating, and given that the tree is being created by him as making fruit contingently, god makes the conditions, and he makes the tree as making the fruit according to those conditions.

Does God know whether or not a particular tree will make fruit at a particular time? Yes. As the immediate creator of the tree, its contingency and the conditions surrounding it, he has immediate and infallible knowledge of the causes and the effects. 

If he knows that the tree will make fruit, it is because he is creating it as making fruit according to the contingency of the tree's fruit making. 

Does his infallible knowledge of what-will-happen mean that the tree makes the fruit necessarily (i.e. it makes the fruit independently from the conditions surrounding it)? No. God's participation does not suddenly remove the contingency, in fact, the contingent nature of the fruit-making is also directly created by god.

So what does this have to do with free-will? If you can't distinguish between necessity and contingency related to god's action, then you certainly can't distinguish between freedom (which requires contingency) and coercion/non-freedom.

[Ignorant]

It's fine but metaphysics is a whole other question to ask and it get's out of hand.

=) Fair enough.

Do you think there is a difference between things that certainly happen necessarily, and things that certainly happen contingently?

[dyresand]

It's fine but metaphysics is a whole other question to ask and it get's out of hand.

=) Fair enough.

Do you think there is a difference between things that certainly happen necessarily, and things that certainly happen contingently?

Well i would put it like this i have homework i need to do so i do it out of necessity because i want a degree in game and simulation. Then the same can be asked
for a god does god will necessity on anything and anyone.

Then for the other side of the question i wouldn't know what will happen if were to cross the street will or will i not get hit by a car it's a uncertainty. Things themselves will
and would have happen by chance.

[Ignorant]

Well i would put it like this i have homework i need to do so i do it out of necessity because i want a degree in game and simulation. Then the same can be asked for a god does god will necessity on anything and anyone.

Right. You need to do your homework for the sake of earning a degree in game and simulation. But you don't do your homework "of necessity" if there is a real possibility of not doing it. So the question is: Is it possible NOT to do your homework? 

If so, then completing your homework is contingent. Given certain conditions, you will do your homework. Given different conditions, you might not do your homework. This means that, if you did your homework (AND YOU SHOULD! ), your doing it was a contingent action. That doesn't mean you did it freely, but we have more information with which to make a judgment about it.

So, does god will necessity on anything and anyone? He certainly does NOT will necessity on anyone. Instead, he wills contingency on EVERYONE. 

Then for the other side of the question i wouldn't know what will happen if were to cross the street will or will i not get hit by a car it's a uncertainty. Things themselves will
and would have happen by chance.

Certainty is not contrary to contingency. I'm not sure we are understanding each other well.

If some event necessarily happens (as opposed to happening contingently), then there exists no set of conditions/circumstances which could alter its happening.

If some event happens contingently (as opposed to happening necessarily), then its happening in depends on a certain set of conditions/circumstances which may, or may not, be present.

IF you understanding an all-knowing god's determination of creation as an imposition of necessity, then, of course, free-will does not exist.

IF, however, you understand an all-knowing god's determination of creation as an imposition of contingency (which I think coincides with our experience), then free-will MAY exist. But until we get past that, there is no point in talking about free-will.

[dyresand]

Well i would put it like this i have homework i need to do so i do it out of necessity because i want a degree in game and simulation. Then the same can be asked for a god does god will necessity on anything and anyone.

Right. You need to do your homework for the sake of earning a degree in game and simulation. But you don't do your homework "of necessity" if there is a real possibility of not doing it. So the question is: Is it possible NOT to do your homework? 

If so, then completing your homework is contingent. Given certain conditions, you will do your homework. Given different conditions, you might not do your homework. This means that, if you did your homework (AND YOU SHOULD! ), your doing it was a contingent action. That doesn't mean you did it freely, but we have more information with which to make a judgment about it.

So, does god will necessity on anything and anyone? He certainly does NOT will necessity on anyone. Instead, he wills contingency on EVERYONE. 

Then for the other side of the question i wouldn't know what will happen if were to cross the street will or will i not get hit by a car it's a uncertainty. Things themselves will
and would have happen by chance.

Certainty is not contrary to contingency. I'm not sure we are understanding each other well.

If some event necessarily happens (as opposed to happening contingently), then there exists no set of conditions/circumstances which could alter its happening.

If some event happens contingently (as opposed to happening necessarily), then its happening in depends on a certain set of conditions/circumstances which may, or may not, be present.

IF you understanding an all-knowing god's determination of creation as an imposition of necessity, then, of course, free-will does not exist.

IF, however, you understand an all-knowing god's determination of creation as an imposition of contingency (which I think coincides with our experience), then free-will MAY exist. But until we get past that, there is no point in talking about free-will.

i do my homework because i want to do my homework and i have a goal. That being said i don't have to i put off my written assignments and do those later 
because i can and because i have the option too. 

That's the issue on both statements god is being all knowing a all knowing being does not allow for free will. There cannot be free will if there is a being that is all knowing
you just worded both statements differently

[Ignorant]

i do my homework because i want to do my homework and i have a goal. That being said i don't have to i put off my written assignments and do those later 
because i can and because i have the option too. 

That's great! Remember that when freedom comes back up.

That's the issue on both statements god is being all knowing a all knowing being does not allow for free will. There cannot be free will if there is a being that is all knowing
you just worded both statements differently

I did indeed word both statements differently. Do you think the two statements describe two different ideas?