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Free will
RE: Free will
(May 26, 2016 at 7:52 am)Rhythm Wrote: But in even proposing that there are two senses, such that a claim can be simultaneously true and false...we have flatly -demonstrated- the incompatibility of the claims made. 

Hardly. There are two senses because there are at least two senses in which the "terms" can be understood (i.e. equivocation is easy in this area). In both cases it is BOTH true that god infallibly foreknows AND true that contingent events happen contingently.

Quote:In proposing conditional, temporal, and causally deterministic knowledge as a defense of their compatibility we are sacrificing -both- foreknowledge and free will at the altar of their defense.  In proposing causally deterministic outcomes for a foundation or mechanism, we are sacrificing free will at the altar of foreknowledge.  In proposing the possibility of some other outcome we are sacrificing foreknowledge at the altar of free will.

Hardly. I don't know how many times I can say this, but free-will is not the same as contingency/conditional events. You can't talk about freedom if you don't even accept contingency as compatible with foreknowledge.

If you can't distinguish between a determination and necessity, then you will have a difficult time discussing this intelligently. If you conflate necessity with determinism, then it is as you say, and conditions are irrelevant (in fact, conditions wouldn't even exist) and "illusory".

Quote:There is -no way- this works together unless we change the "sense" of what were talking about between subjects - which is a massive logical chasm that no amount of scrambling will ever get us out of.  Something is wrong with our concept of god's knowledge, our concept of our own free will, -or both-.

Ya, it is definitely both, but I would also add to the list of inadequate understanding of concepts determination, necessity and contingency, all of which are logically more fundamental than god's knowledge and freedom.
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Messages In This Thread
Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 10:55 am
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 26, 2016 at 11:07 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 11:17 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 1, 2016 at 7:53 pm
RE: Free will - by brewer - April 1, 2016 at 9:22 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 1, 2016 at 9:52 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 4, 2016 at 8:05 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 7, 2016 at 7:46 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 8, 2016 at 6:35 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 8, 2016 at 7:08 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 12, 2016 at 6:38 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 12, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - March 26, 2016 at 1:25 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 27, 2016 at 3:24 am
RE: Free will - by Ryantology - March 26, 2016 at 7:47 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 26, 2016 at 11:36 am
RE: Free will - by robvalue - March 26, 2016 at 1:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Excited Penguin - March 26, 2016 at 1:51 pm
RE: Free will - by robvalue - March 26, 2016 at 2:40 pm
RE: Free will - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - March 26, 2016 at 3:01 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 7:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2016 at 8:01 pm
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 1, 2016 at 10:30 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 1, 2016 at 11:11 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2016 at 11:41 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 2, 2016 at 10:07 am
RE: Free will - by JuliaL - April 2, 2016 at 12:08 am
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 2, 2016 at 12:28 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 12:59 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 1:55 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 2:16 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 2:33 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 2:49 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 2:59 am
RE: Free will - by Wyrd of Gawd - April 2, 2016 at 3:12 am
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 2, 2016 at 1:45 am
RE: Free will - by Silver - April 2, 2016 at 3:00 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 2, 2016 at 3:43 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 2, 2016 at 9:37 pm
RE: Free will - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 5:16 pm
RE: Free will - by Jehanne - April 2, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: Free will - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 7:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Jehanne - April 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 3, 2016 at 12:24 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 3, 2016 at 1:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Drich - April 4, 2016 at 8:31 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 4, 2016 at 8:14 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 7, 2016 at 7:41 pm
RE: Free will - by brewer - April 4, 2016 at 9:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Rhondazvous - April 8, 2016 at 7:51 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 16, 2016 at 2:13 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 16, 2016 at 3:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 21, 2016 at 6:41 pm
RE: Free will - by Ryantology - April 17, 2016 at 7:54 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 22, 2016 at 7:21 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 22, 2016 at 7:36 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 24, 2016 at 7:20 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 25, 2016 at 11:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 26, 2016 at 9:36 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 27, 2016 at 11:38 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 29, 2016 at 6:09 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 29, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 6, 2016 at 8:35 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 7, 2016 at 12:04 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 11, 2016 at 6:33 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 7:38 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 13, 2016 at 7:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - April 25, 2016 at 12:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 30, 2016 at 8:56 am
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - April 30, 2016 at 11:45 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 7, 2016 at 8:20 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 7, 2016 at 9:07 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 7, 2016 at 9:56 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 7:52 pm
RE: Free will - by chrisdubbya - May 11, 2016 at 8:10 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 11, 2016 at 11:03 pm
RE: Free will - by robvalue - May 12, 2016 at 4:13 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 22, 2016 at 7:28 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 26, 2016 at 7:05 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 8:41 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 5, 2016 at 6:22 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 8:47 pm
RE: Free will - by ApeNotKillApe - April 26, 2016 at 9:04 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 9:17 pm
RE: Free will - by ApeNotKillApe - April 26, 2016 at 9:48 pm
RE: Free will - by Aroura - April 29, 2016 at 6:46 pm
RE: Free will - by deleteduser12345 - April 29, 2016 at 7:18 pm
RE: Free will - by Aroura - April 29, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 29, 2016 at 9:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 5, 2016 at 6:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Mudhammam - May 5, 2016 at 11:30 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 6, 2016 at 9:30 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 7, 2016 at 12:43 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 10, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 12, 2016 at 7:45 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 8:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 11, 2016 at 9:09 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 11:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 12, 2016 at 7:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 14, 2016 at 3:20 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 13, 2016 at 8:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 18, 2016 at 7:12 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 18, 2016 at 11:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 14, 2016 at 3:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 21, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 14, 2016 at 4:58 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 3:21 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 4:51 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 21, 2016 at 4:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 21, 2016 at 6:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 5:13 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 5:58 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 6:45 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 11:19 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 12:26 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 12:37 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 3:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 4:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 4:34 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 5:05 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 5:08 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 11:08 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 11:33 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 12:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 4:38 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 8:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 5:13 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 10:20 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 11:01 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 12:22 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - May 24, 2016 at 1:10 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 1:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 6:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Silver - May 24, 2016 at 7:11 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 7:14 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 8:10 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 12:25 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 22, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 5:02 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 23, 2016 at 9:19 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 1:37 am
RE: Free will - by Spinchance - May 25, 2016 at 5:08 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 7:28 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 25, 2016 at 1:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 25, 2016 at 3:36 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 3:51 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 25, 2016 at 6:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 3:15 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 26, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 3:33 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 3:41 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 29, 2016 at 12:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 3:47 am
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - May 25, 2016 at 3:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 4:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 6:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 6:38 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 7:26 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 7:39 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 7:52 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 8:32 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 8:43 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 28, 2016 at 7:06 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 12:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:23 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:53 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:40 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 4:49 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 5:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 5:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dom.donald - May 26, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 11:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 12:13 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 12:45 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 4:49 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 2:21 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 7:34 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 7:48 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 8:07 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 8:10 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 8:17 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 8:27 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 9:43 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 11:47 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 2:15 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 4:41 pm
Free will - by dom.donald - May 27, 2016 at 10:35 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 10:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 28, 2016 at 12:19 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 28, 2016 at 12:26 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 28, 2016 at 11:55 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 2, 2016 at 7:50 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 7:54 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 12:53 am
RE: Free will - by Silver - June 2, 2016 at 7:59 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 8:15 pm
RE: Free will - by Silver - June 2, 2016 at 8:17 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 9, 2016 at 5:45 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 10, 2016 at 4:16 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 15, 2016 at 6:23 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 9, 2016 at 7:02 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - June 10, 2016 at 6:17 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - June 10, 2016 at 1:04 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - June 10, 2016 at 5:00 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 10, 2016 at 1:19 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 10, 2016 at 2:08 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 10, 2016 at 2:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 10, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Harassed - June 10, 2016 at 5:16 pm
Free will - by dom.donald - June 10, 2016 at 10:15 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 15, 2016 at 6:27 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 15, 2016 at 7:57 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 23, 2016 at 7:47 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 12, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by John V - June 14, 2016 at 8:34 am
RE: Free will - by SofaKingHigh - June 14, 2016 at 8:41 am
RE: Free will - by John V - June 14, 2016 at 10:02 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - June 14, 2016 at 3:53 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 6:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 7:59 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 15, 2016 at 8:02 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 8:03 pm
RE: Free will - by Silver - June 16, 2016 at 12:44 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 12:38 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 10:54 am
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:10 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 12:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 12:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: Free will - by h4ym4n - June 16, 2016 at 1:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 1:37 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 1:40 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 1:53 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 1:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:03 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:06 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:09 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:12 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:14 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:19 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:24 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:39 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:05 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:06 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:22 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:12 pm
RE: Free will - by madog - June 16, 2016 at 3:13 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:40 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:57 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:01 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:10 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 4:19 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:23 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 4:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 5:59 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 4:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 4:27 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:33 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 4:46 pm
RE: Free will - by bennyboy - June 16, 2016 at 6:49 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 8:47 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 23, 2016 at 11:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 26, 2016 at 2:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Ayen - June 25, 2016 at 8:49 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 26, 2016 at 2:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 26, 2016 at 2:44 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 26, 2016 at 2:49 pm

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