RE: Free will
May 27, 2016 at 11:47 am
(This post was last modified: May 27, 2016 at 11:53 am by Ignorant.)
(May 27, 2016 at 9:43 am)Rhythm Wrote:(May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm)Ignorant Wrote: IF God knows everything, yes, you will do X no matter what. <= X is determinedIn this example you exclude -all- alternatives to x. The only choice I can make, such as it is, is x or x.
That's fine. Can you point to where I called that free will?
Quote:-and here you exclude the only alternative to a, in the set of a and b. The only choice I can make, such as it is, is a or a.
Right. Can you point to where I call it free will?
Quote:That's what I'm choosing, that's what I'm free willing, because you left nothing else - it is all that remains.
I've seen you identify choice as free will (as you do above) many times. You are drawing a conclusion that I never have, and then you are projecting that conclusion as my own definition. It isn't.
Quote:That I'm choosing or free willing anything at all is only by your insistence to call it such....despite my own reservations. I've already told you I don't think we're talking about free wills once we maintain the above. Hell, it erodes our traditional folklore regarding choice too. Oh well.
I am challenging you to provide a single quote of mine by which I "INSIST" to call choice free will, or free will choice. In the meantime, I will provide all of the times that I insist that we distinguish freedom from contingency, choice, necessity, coercion, etc., and whenever I mention choice, that I am quick to immediately remark that I do not also mean free choice:
"In short, contingency is a requisite for free action, but it is not equivalent." - pg. 11, 108 HERE
"If you don't think the manner in which an action obtains says anything about its freedom, then how exactly do you tell the difference between a free action and a non-free action?" - pg. 12, 117 HERE
"So what does this have to do with free-will? If you can't distinguish between necessity and contingency related to god's action, then you certainly can't distinguish between freedom (which requires contingency) and coercion/non-freedom." - pg. 13, 125 HERE
"This means that, if you did your homework (AND YOU SHOULD! ), your doing it was a contingent action. That doesn't mean you did it freely, but we have more information with which to make a judgment about it." - pg. 13, 128 HERE
"IF, however, you understand an all-knowing god's determination of creation as an imposition of contingency (which I think coincides with our experience), then free-will MAY exist. But until we get past that, there is no point in talking about free-will." - pg. 13, 128 HERE
"Does an all-knowing being allow for contingency? Contingency is not the same as freedom/free-will." -pg. 14, 133 HERE
"" - pg. 15, 142 HERE
"I haven't even begun to discuss choice yet. You can't speak intelligently about choice until you can accurately distinguish between necessity and contingency." - pg. 16, 153 HERE
[/url]"If that is the case, then an all-knowing god is compatible with real choices. Are those choices free? That is a different question." - pg. 16, 155 [url=http://atheistforums.org/thread-42248-post-1284306.html#pid1284306]HERE
"I don't know how many times I can say this, but free-will is not the same as contingency/conditional events. You can't talk about freedom if you don't even accept contingency as compatible with foreknowledge." - pg. 17, 168 HERE
"If you must choose b, it MUST mean that you MUST choose b contingently. I don't see any other way choice is possible Is this the same thing as saying you MUST choose b freely? NO! . . . Clearly, you are struggling to distinguish contingency from choice and freedom." - pg. 17, 170 HERE
And that is only up to page 17. I think you get the idea.