Confessions

[emjay]

Yeah, that's the problem - it would make just as much sense for it to be a purely physiological/reflexive response so no indicator of the presence or absence of consciousness. So again, perhaps best to just assume consciousness in all animals even if it could never be disproven.

I'm saying the chems would affect their consciousness in the exact same manner as us in that the body is chemically screaming to the action issuing electric mind "OMFG! WTF is that! You need do something about it immediately!"

There's no need for a conscious conception of "self" by the simple organism, but that doesn't mean there is no experiential consciousness there. I imagine it occupies a rudimentary range between "OHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT!!!" and "...nah, I'm good" *munchmunchmunch* with occasional spikes of "hey there you sexy thang!"

Ah right, I see. Consciousness but not self-consciousness. In which case pain is probably still pain (as in unpleasant) even if the animal can't reflect on it. The question being basically if there is phenomenal consciousness of any type... if there is phenomenal pain... then that's something to always aim to reduce in the world. As a rough aside it I hate that we as humans always apply the 'prime directive' to nature as a whole... ie not interfere... when there's so much suffering out there in the brutal natural world... with civilisation we escape the general predator vs prey nature of the world and I know there's no real way we could interfere on a large scale but nonetheless if we assume consciousness in all animals, it sucks to have to sit by and do nothing with so much animal on animal suffering in nature