(April 20, 2017 at 4:59 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:SteveII Wrote:He would if free will had sufficient value as to allow the possibility of evil (which it seems it does).
Satan and demons don't make us sin so are not part of any argument.
What does God lack that his need for people with free will overrides any harm that may result? God can't foresee which people will choose to be evil and refrain from making them, thereby not violating the free will of any people he does allow to exist? It isn't logically impossible for people to only freely choose good...so an omnipotent God should be able to manage to come up with a world where that's the case, and an omnibenevolent God would want to. [1]
What about natural evil? God can't make planets that don't have earthquakes and tsunamis? [2]
So that wasn't the devil in the Garden, just your run-of-the-mill talking snake? They don't have to make us sin, if we're worse off because of them and God is able to destroy them or confine them away from us, God is morally obliged to do so. We're innocent of their creation, that's on God. Of course if God isn't actually all that benevolent, that's not a consideration. [3]
Believing in demons and the devil having any power at all in our world is inconsistent with believing in the God of theodicy. Just because you believe in God doesn't mean you have to believe in devils and demons. Do you think the free will of evil spirits is an important consideration for God? [4]
1. I don't want to argue the Problem of Evil Argument again. It will come down to that while it is broadly logically possible (that is a term with a specific meaning) that God could make a world where people freely chose good all the time, it may not be actually possible (free will and all). Since the burden of proof is on the atheist, the argument is not successful in the end.
2. I posted this awhile back in response to a similar question:
Quote:First, I would say that an omnibenevolent God would not cause natural disasters. So, are we to conclude that when events at the beginning were set in motion with our physical laws that God was therefore the remote cause of all future natural disasters?
What is a natural disaster? There is nothing inherently evil about a continental plate shift or a weather pattern developing. In fact, each of those events probably have positive natural effects for the environment. When humans suffer as a result, you are making a claim of what "ought not be". Additionally, people have the freedom to move in and out of harms way. How is is that God is responsible for human choices of when and where to be?
So really you are making the claim that God should not permit suffering as a result of natural disaster and it is illogical that an omnibenevolent God would do so. What "ought not be" "ought not be permitted". I am confused on a particular point: do you think God should prevent all natural "disasters", just those that harm people, or miraculously save people during such an event?
1. Being extremely limited in big picture knowledge, why do you think we can determine both what "ought not be" and what "ought not be permitted? God being omniscient (part of the definition) would see a big picture that we could in no way understand. You would have to prove that God did not have morally sufficient reasons to a) refrain from preventing a natural disaster or b) supernaturally intervening during one.
2. Christian doctrine increases probability that God allows human suffering as a result of natural disasters.
a) The chief purpose of life is not happiness, but knowledge of God. A natural disaster may increase that knowledge.
b) God's knowledge includes the greatest eternal good (the maximum number of people freely choosing salvation from an eternal perspective).
c) Man's knowledge of God is considered an incommensurable good (and end in itself)
3. We choose to sin. Your reasoning that we aren't responsible for creating the temptation would apply to everything.
4. I don't believe demons have any causal effect on the physical world unless we invite them in by playing around with spiritual things best avoided (witchcraft, etc.). They do seem to be able to have an effect on our immaterial soul.
