Believe:

[Edwardo Piet]

I don't want to talk about evidence, because (like I said to Kyu) I don't think it will be very constructive. My goal is not to convince you that I am right.

Fair enough. You are here for a 'learning experience', or something like that then? To talk about ideas etc? As I think you say later in your post?

In that light, the fact that god personally makes sense to me is a good reason... to me.

But if you believe God objectively exists...how can you have personal reasons for it? How can you have a personal reason to believe in something OBJECTIVE? Because everyone's personal reasons are different. I do not know how a 'personal reason' (and if it's not simply feelings then I don't know what this personal reason(s) could be?) could be a good reason to believe God exists, when you are talking about something OBJECTIVE here, something objectively existing.

Once again, how can you have your own entirely personal reason to believe in something OBJECTIVE?...And still think it's a good reason?

I believe in two ideas of god. There is (to only me) undeniable evidence and proof that there are forces much larger than I at play here.

And how does it apply any more than anyone elses 'personal reasons'/views? How can this PERSONAL ('only to you') 'undeniable evidence and proof' apply if it's only to you but it's about something OBJECTIVE, which ISN'T only to you? But, if true, would apply to anyone else?

Once again, I am having trouble understanding how you can justify having entirely personal reasons to believe in something objective, something, objectively existing..?

That is the universal god, yes. I don't know too much for sure about it, and I don't tell myself I know things about it that I do not.

So you just tell yourself that he/she/it exists? In which case, how do you know THAT but are not willing to apply any details? Sure - to claim to know DETAILS is more absurd (to me anyway) - but how can you claim to believe he/she exists at all? Ok; not 'KNOW' I've heard you admit you dont 'know', but what reason(s) have you got to believe God exists and yet you haven't got any to apply any details? It seems very vague - what exactly are you interpreting as reason to believe - but not much further than that?

I hope you can understand what I'm talking about here a bit -- because I'm sometimes having difficulty explaining what I mean here.

Oh yeah, and by it I mean 'they' because I cannot support monotheism Then there is my depiction of god that is very personal and does exist only in my head. She is my best attempt to relate to the one true god (to use an old term), but is admittedly an imperfect effigy. Much like my distorted personal reality, as mimicry or misunderstanding of the most real reality we all share. So god exists, and an imaginary friend I happen to have named god and representing the real god also exists. One in truth, and one only true in my own head. That is the longest way of saying 'yes and no'.

So...if I understand you correctly, are you saying that since God is unknowable and perfect (or as close as) according to you, that you are not capable of imagining him/her fully since you are merely a human, a mortal. So your own personal depiction is about as close as you can get.

If so, ok, fair enough. But I still don't understand why you are adding the depiction in the first place, because I still don't understand why you believe in God. What ARE these 'personal reasons' that can seemingly (according to you) give reason to believe in something objective, that God objectively exists? If it's, indeed, it wouldn't be too personal to ask of these 'personal reasons' that give a good reason to believe in something objectively? (I.e a reason(s) to believe God objectively exists, as I said).

I don't want there to be intent or meaning, I just am pretty sure there is.

Why? What do you see around you that makes you believe there's any intention or meaning other than human intention/meaning? (and arguably some other animals PERHAPS - maybe at least (or at least some OF) the other primates).

Why do you assume it has to be THIS way for a reason? It's not like it's been perfectly created. There are a lot of fucked up things in the world - and as far as we know, so far, out of all the known planets in the universe - ours is the only one with life on it - what a waste eh?

I appreciated this question the most. I am thinking from the bottom up, not the top down. There does not have to be a reason why 'it happened this way', but it happened this way 'for a reason'. Something didn't intend for life to be this way in particular, but I think someone intended for life to be.

Why do you think that? What do you know(/believe) that cannot simply be explained WIHOUT adding any ultimate meaning to the universe?

Another way, the 'way things are now' has a cause in the momentum of past cause and effect relationships. That is a meaning, a reason. Not a human intent, but just a reason within the workings of the machine (of life). I could not agree more that there are a lot of fucked up things in this world. I don't blame god for those things though. I blame free will. You want no evil? Then you don't get to make any choices or mistakes. The world is fucked, but it is still the most magnificent thing we know. If god made it, we are destroying it (and her?). I don't think us being alone in the universe is very believable anymore. It's about adapting to new information as it becomes available. There is more and more information to suggest we are the furthest thing from alone out here. It is a waste, yes. But also the greatest story ever told. Good and bad, coexisting to make a shade of grey.

1. I still don't understand why your 'personal reasons' are a reason to believe in an objective God, hence I don't understand why you believe.

2. Do you believe God is perfect...? Because if he is, despite the fact the world can be nice place to live in TOO ...if God does exist, and gave us free will - I still think a PERFECT God could have done a hell of a lot fucking better. Because this world ISN'T perfect. A perfect God could give people free will WITHOUT all the horrible shit...how is that possible? Well - if he's perfect he/she/it can do anything.

That god would make a world in which she could cease to exist (makes me smile).

I don't understand this. You mean...creating the universe and then disappearing and not intervening at all? Kind of like Deism? Or, are you talking of the universe or nature ITSELF being God? Because you seem to talk about us possibly destroying or corupting 'her' (as in God I assume) - as if God is part of the environment, like the universe itself is the same as God?

Rather than God creating the universe and intervening with it - or however many GodS you believe in.

I hope I am making a shred of sense. My biggest thing is that I don't want to argue towards converting you or anyone. I don't want to talk about my evidence, I want to talk about my thoughts and ideas. I want to hear your thoughts and ideas. Not about control, just along for the ride. Thank you very kindly for your time in writing, and especially reading this gargantuan post. Until next time.

"There must be some kind of way out of here,"
-Pip

Fair enough about the evidence (I'll try!!) - I'll try and have a discussion. If I understand you correctly then, you are here to learn - particularly about 'ideas'?

And I did enjoy reading your post...it was big so I only read your reply to me and not also your reply to Kyu's...but I enjoyed reading what I DID read of it nonetheless. And I don't have a problem with your gargantuan post.

I can also relate a bit (I THINK) to the way you write...kind of thinking aloud it seems? Kind of like me lol

Well, with me anyway - it's the only way I know how to write. If I didn't write like this - I'd just clog up and wouldn't write at all...

And if I DO write like this...well you can see - and also, AS you can see - I seem to post a lot when I post like this lol (the only way I really know how to post, it comes natural to me).

EvF