Believe:

[Edwardo Piet]

@ Pip - Oh, sorry Pip...somehow I managed to completely miss your last response to me..apologies.

Back,

EvF, you have been so polite, and asking very honest questions with a clear attempt only to understand me. I feel badly that I am not doing a very good job making it all make sense to you. Everything I do is kind of off the top of my head.

So long as you are trying, that is all one could ask

I apologize for making you ask more than once, and it is a valid query. I believe in the objective god (the one I don't know much about). I believe in it (them) because I have been shown (have learned) enough about the world to see the patterns repeat far too much to have any randomness, anything but (duh-duh-duh) intelligent design.

I'm sure this could all be explained though..coincidences are inevitable...many many coincidences can happen to simply count as evidence (or reasons to believe, or whatever, since you're not so keen on that word) for ANYTHING 'Supernatural', 'Paranormal' or 'just plain weird'..but it's not evidence and I don't see how it's a rational reason to believe that those things (or God(s)) actual exist(s)? It could apply to so many things..besides - it's often how the mind interprets the coincidences - not just the coincidences.

Coincidences (repeating patterns, etc), don't count as evidence (or rational reasons(s) to believe, etc) of the supernatural (Or "God(s)" or whatever)... I mean for a start; it could apply to so many things..

I ask 'Why?' (like a philosopher) about the hypothetical reasons behind being alive, living in this situation. I know most on this site would instantly say 'There is no why'

I would simply assume that until there is evidence (or a genuinely objective rational reason to believe) to believe there is an absolute, ultimate 'Why?' or meaning - that there isn't one. It is the default position. I wouldn't postulate an ultimate meaning given without any evidence (yeah I know you don't like that word; but I don't see any other rational reason to believe in something OBJECTIVE, other than - evidence. Doesn't have to be empirical (although it basically always is in the matter of existence so far), evidence is evidence. Just need evidence (for a rational reason to believe something)).

And all that I have seen and learned is unexplainable as a random outcome. Far, far too engineered.

Seems (to me) like that's just you not being able to personally believe it, it seems... - I do not know of any evidence (/proper reasons ) to believe that the universe is designed or engineered..

Whatever the universe came from I think would have to be at least RELATIVELY simple, relative to the rest... because if you think the UNIVERSE looks complicated and engineered, imagine how complicated God (/ the collective GodS) would have to be to be there right from the beginning to create it all?

God(s) creates a much bigger problem than (S )he/it can solve..

I know of no evidence of design - and the designer would have to be more complex...

You talk of 'bottom up'...well I am with that only in the sense that I think complexity arises from simplicity..and that whatever the 'first cause' or first THING was....it would have to be very simple and totally unintelligent and mindless - and everything arose from that...

Intelligence and complexity arises later - due to the laws of the universe etc..
Where are these laws from? Well the thing is - if they came from GOD(S) - then God would have to be an AWFUL lot more complex than THEM, so once again - (S)he/it creates a much bigger problem than (I'll just say "it" to simplify) --IT can solve.

May be a problem is that I use discrediting language on myself so often. I will slip in (with brackets) the little voice that says 'I think' or 'I might be wrong' and 'only to me'. That is because i am trying to be honest, as I have done most of my life.

Well I do believe honesty is certainly a good thing. In my experience (at least) the vast vast majority of the time

I believe in the objectivity of god (there are only objects and subjects, if humans are to be a subject and not merely an object than something else needs to be the object).

well, SORT OF going by that I guess fair enough BUT...why do there have to be any 'subjects' why the 'plan'? And why does the first THING (or 'cause') have to be a "God" as in an intelligent (or superintelligent) being or force? Why can't it start with something simple and then the rest follows (however it happened)...like some kind of singularity such as 'the big bang'?

It is more complex to bring God into the picture cos as I said he/she/it creates a much bigger problem than he/she/it can solve.

I say it is a personal belief from years of conditioning. As much as I guess most of you have been treated poorly because of your beliefs, I attend that I am treated very poorly for mine as well.

Sorry to hear that. I personally have been very lucky in that sense.

I just don't live in the bible belt anymore.

I can't help but say that that's good to hear.

Very secular here.

cool

I think it is absolute, but I'm not gonna try to make others think that if they don't want to.

Good to have a "believer" of some shape or form, who's so polite and isn't forcing things but just discussing about his/herself, etc, and for a learning experience, etc. (I'm not entirely sure if you are a boy or a girl?)

Oh yeah, I found out that there is also a repeating pattern of repeating patterns. Another part of the design that makes me smile.

Where/how did you learn this? I'd like to know.

What do you think this is supposed to be? Life?

I don't know of any reason to believe that it's ultimately SUPPOSED to be ANYTHING..
More recently I would say I view life like this (personally)..

I've known many who say life is here 'to be lived'..but I think that can put a futile pressure like - "I'm supposed to LIVE...how do I do that? How do I live? How do I life?"

When I see it like this..the fact is we ARE living...or we couldn't be having this conversation..

I TRY not to 'tell myself' to appreciate life and put on that pressure...but that also means - if I DO tell myself...I accept that ANYWAY too...for that is what I am doing...

Sorry if it's hard to understand. For it is hard for me to explain, kinda.

I guess it's basically like..I try not to worry about worrying...but I don't worry myself with the trying - I don't worry if I worry anyway. For that's just how I'm (currently) 'flowing'.

I realized along the path that I can make most anything 'true'. I can lie and manipulate and argue any point, opposing points even. So if I can make 'god' make sense and 'not-god' as well, which should I choose? I think the one that leads me to be happier, healthier and a much better world citizen (not better than you or anything, better than I was before).

Reality is reality whether you like it or not. Your own 'life' (how you experience reality) may change depending on your beliefs...but reality is always there to shake you and wake you back up (and it doesn't always do it in a nice way either).

It is what it is (reality, that is).

I should stop writing, it is more of a rant than I intended. Thank you kindly for being patient with me, and I hope this helps some.

No problem, nice discussing with you thus far.

It will likely just cause a thousand more relevant questions...

Well I'll do my best lol. Over 2000 posts so far so I guess 1000 QUESTIONS isn't impossible lol

But seriously, nice discussing with you.

EvF