Anyone invoking the "suffering martyrs" argument ("Would they die for a lie") has two fundamental problems with their reasoning:
1. They're using folklore to prove mythology.
As Min has observed somewhere on page 6 of this thread, Christians have promoted this Hollywood-esque folklore of the early church were Christians won the Romans over by refusing to leave their faith even in the face of torture and execution. In reality, even the very documents Christians cite, such as the letters of Pliny, the Christians were willing to renounce their faith. The image of martyrs holding their heads high as they bravely went to their deaths, looking forward to their union with their celestial lord, is one promoted strictly by Christian folklore and propaganda.
2. Special pleading
David Koresh, Jim Jones and the leader of the Heaven's Gate cult are examples of cult leaders willingly going to their deaths for what a rational person would know is a lie. There are many more examples of fanatics who die for their faith as well.
1. They're using folklore to prove mythology.
As Min has observed somewhere on page 6 of this thread, Christians have promoted this Hollywood-esque folklore of the early church were Christians won the Romans over by refusing to leave their faith even in the face of torture and execution. In reality, even the very documents Christians cite, such as the letters of Pliny, the Christians were willing to renounce their faith. The image of martyrs holding their heads high as they bravely went to their deaths, looking forward to their union with their celestial lord, is one promoted strictly by Christian folklore and propaganda.
2. Special pleading
David Koresh, Jim Jones and the leader of the Heaven's Gate cult are examples of cult leaders willingly going to their deaths for what a rational person would know is a lie. There are many more examples of fanatics who die for their faith as well.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
