Thoughts on Hell?

[Mr.Obvious]

Relax man. I'm not playing semantics here. Of course you haven't said anything about believing opposites. People usually don't notice when they hold conflicting ideas in their head. In your case; the idea that, accepting that there is an all-knowing all-powerfull creator of the universe, we can choose to do something outside of that creator's 'divine plan'. Of course you don't say anything about that. And that is why I point it out for you. That's kind of how conversation and discussion work, you know? I give you new insights to your established ideology. You do the same for me. We both strengthen or dissolve our views accordingly, ... Basic stuff.

I am relaxed, it is you who are trying to put words in my post that are not there or even a part of what I believe. You can choose to do many things outside of God's will, it's called sin. God's divine purpose is unchangeable. There is a difference between what God's will for our life is and His divine purpose (plan). So you see I know what I believe and what I believe in this case is right.

I'm not trying to put words in your posts. I'm trying to show you my POV on the matter. You do realize I'm allowed to have one in a discussion, right?
And the trouble with the sentences you reply above remain, in my POV. Your god's plan is made under complete control because of his discussed omni-attributes. Yet he creates his creation willfully to divert from what he wants to create? Why the hell would he do that? If he'd created a universe in which everyone would choose not to sin, they'd have done that with as much free will as you and I have now. (Its an illusion of free will, but still.)
It does not add up bub. And you going "Nuh-uh, yeah it does!" doesn't make it so.

 

It boils down to this:
1) Omniscience => Knowing how any one of an infinite ways to create his creation would turn out for every individual ever in it.

Wrong, omniscience means God knows all things as in knowing how to create the perfect universe. You are confusing omniscience with omnipresence.

Yes. As I said. God knows all things, including how to create the perfect universe. Omnipresence does not come into play with this. All it means is that he is everywhere at all time. The reason why it is irrelevant is because he doesn't need to be everywhere to know everything that happened, happens and will happen. After all, he's already omniscient. If he doesn't know exactly what will happen without being there, he is not omniscient. (Though your weird idea that omnipresence is somehow the thing that allows for free will is something I would like you to explain in detail, because it's one jump in logic you either didn't provide the necessary steps for, or that don't exist.)
But in any case... we agree, right. God would know how to create his universe in such a way that it would be 'perfect'. And in a 'perfect' world, we would all come to accept him as our lord and savior.

You believe omnipresence doesn't come into play because you do not understand what omnipresence is concerning God. God is omniscient because He is omnipresent. God being omnipresent means He is eternal, living unceasingly in what man refers to as the past, present and future. You see your understanding of God is in a sense backwards. God has always known everything because He has always seen everything, nothing has ever existed or was created that God didn't already know about before hand. people would like to think there lives are like a book playing out from page to page and to use that is the way it works, however with God He has seen a persons total life in an instant even before He created the universe. God's omnipresence has nothing to do with our free will. Our free will is a gift given to us so that we can choose, God just sees all we choose to do long before we do it. This doesn't mean our lives are predetermined, it they were God couldn't say that man is foolish because of some things we choose to do, He can say that because we are free to choose.
I will agree with you that God knows how to create the perfect universe because He did, that's what is described in the first two chapters of the Bible. However Adam and Eve sinned corrupting the creation, God cursed the created universe because of that sin. If there had never been any sin there would have never been a need to come to God for salvation, salvation is the freedom from sins wrath. We also wouldn't need to accept Him as our Lord, we would recognize Him as Lord.

Okay. On the bold: So since omnipresence does not give the free will, which unless I completely misunderstood you in your previous post, and since you haven't really adressed any of my reasoning on the other omni-attributes making true free will impossible with anything consistent, I'm going to see this as you not correcting me on anything. And if you don't, I'm not going to change my view.

On the italic: So god created a sin free world that he designed to have sin enter in (somehow that's perfect) just so he could free us from sin? He couldn't just create a world in which we would accept him as our lord? One in which the suffering and eternal damnation of most of us was unnecessary? Because that would be a better creation. And if he can't create that or didn't know how to, he ain't omnipotent and/or omniscient.

2) Omnipotence => Being able to choose any one of those infinite ways, including the best one in which everyone would come to him.

You are defining these things to fit your argument, to prove your point you have use your argument against who God is. You can't just make this stuff up and expect a learned Christian to swallow this stuff.

Omnipotence means that God has the power to create and destroy the universe at His desire. Creating something from nothing is omnipotence.

I'm just trying to be honest about what these traits would entail. You are the one saying your God has them.
Omniscience = All knowing
Omnipotence = All powerfull
So he has all of infinite possibilities on how to create a universe in his grasp, with not one being any harder for him to accomplish than another. And he knows how each of these infinite possibilities will turn out if he chooses to create the universe in that exact way. That's just what it entails.

I'm not saying God has them, He has them because He is God anything less would mean He wasn't the God He states He is.
God created the universe one way only, He didn't look down through time to see which universe would be best, that would be predetermination, He created the universe knowing man would fail, this time that God has given man is playing out through our choices, we were not created to turn out any certain way, we choose how to live. God foresaw this and made a plan to redeem as many as would accept what He did to reconcile us to Him. Our freedom of choice is extremely important to God that's why He protects us from Satan's direct influence upon us. God keeps the field level neither He nor Satan can cause us to decide to choose one way or the other.

On the bold: So he turned of his omniscience?
On the Italic: He should forsee how it turns out. He's omniscient, right? But the fact that even one soul is lost is implying he failed at his job. He made the fucking system, dude. He is all-powerfull and all-knowing. He'd know what to say and do, what to leave behind what to inspire and to create to make sure we would ALL come to accept him. If he couldn't or didn't know how, he's not one of the omni's.
The problem remains.  

I'm not being dishonest or intentionally deceitfull in the way I present these traits, I just use them in this point to illustrate my point. That's not some devious move on my part, it's just what relates to the point I'm making. Now you can tell me God doesn't know how any of these infinite possibilities would turn out or that he couldn't make all of the infinite possibilities. But then your God is not limitless.

Oh and: Omnipotence doesn't mean that God has the power to create and destroy the universe at his desire. That' is a part of omnipotence. An omnipotent God would have the power to create any universe whatsoever. He could create it in any which way he wanted. (And even that would only be an insignificant part of his limitless power.)

I'm not saying nor do I mean to imply you are being purposely deceitful, what I'm trying to say is you do not understand who God is, you are using a supposed logic that fits what you want to believe. What you want to believe is not how things are with God. In your first response to my post you implied we could not choose anything outside of God's plan,I take that to mean things are set and can't be changed, yet you later say that God selected one out of many choices He had, this all leads to predetermination which the Bible clearly shows us is not what God planed. His plan to over come man's fall is set and nothing can change that, Satan tried and failed. We have the freedom of choice, like I said earlier if we didn't God couldn't say that man makes foolish choices. So God knows exactly how this time He has given every man will turn out, simply because through His omnipresence He has observed it in it's entirety, every second of everyone's life.  Let me say this, God's plan is to let time go on until every man that will accept Christ as savior does, no predetermination. God knowing the fall of Lucifer and many of the angels would lead to man's fall and corrupt His perfect creation wants all His created ones to see that His love is greater than the evil brought into existence by the willful disobedience of His created ones. Then God in all His power and glory will destroy evil forever. 

On the bold. You say that as if it's a contradiction? By God's choice of creating the universe in one specific way  out of an infinite of options to him, of which he knew every detail how any of them would turn out, the act of creating that specific universe and everything and -one in it, he determined what we would choose. Even if he'd chosen a different creation, everything in that creation, to the detail, would turn out as he designed it. If he'd created the universe in such a way that everyone would come to accept him, that would have no more and no less free will than this creation. So why not create that one instead? I mean he could. He's omniscient and omnipotent, right?
On the italic. He made satan to try and fail. It's god's half-hearted pretend attempt to sabotage himself, innit?

3) The act of creation => Actively chosing whatever would happen and be chosen within a creation he has total control over due to "1" & "2"

Your statement #3 shows you know nothing about God. You want to argue against Him yet you want use the book that describes who He is. That's like trying to redefine math and never opening a math book.

Your dodging of the conclusion of statement 3 shows me a lot more...
I'm guessing you mean I "don't want to use the book that..."

I did not dodge the conclusion, it's not correct because you do not know God and it's because you do not read the Bible with an open mind if you read it at all. It doesn't matter whether you want to read the Bible or not, to understand anything about God you have to go to the source given to us.

You would think that you would have a better reason to say I'm wrong other than 'you do not know God'. If I did know God and spowed this stuff, would it then magically become right? No. If it's wrong, it's wrong because of some other reason than my lack of knowledge on a deity. It would be an inherently inconsistent idea. Can you point out what is incoherent in my reasoning?

Do I, by the way, need a doctorate in cryptozoology and a decade of intense studies in horned-equine-dissection to be allowed to say I have not come across any evidence for an invisible, pink unicorn? Do I need it to be able to point out that while I don't say there is no unicorn, to call it pink and invisible at the same time is a logical impossibility?
Now maybe I'm being unfair. I'm sure you read the Koran, all the hindu scriptures, went through all the african an native american tribalisms, read the book of mormon, investigated voodoo and hoodoo, went through the religions of the aboriginals, studied the greek, roman, viking, egyptian, persian, ... mythologies extensively. After all, if you want to argue against any of those, you need to be able to use the texts and such that describe those deities. If you can't, you have to just accept that whatever is written in them is true and that they are all true, don't you?

We aren't discussing pink unicorns or any of the other false religions, we are discussing the God of the Bible and if you do not read it all you have are unfounded opinions. like I've told others I do not need to read the text of the other religions to dismiss them. I know God and that He is real and who He says He is and He has said that He doesn't lie and that there are no other gods.

Its called a metaphor. And it is an apt one, if I  says so myself.
You are just being a hypocrite here. I have no nicer way of saying it. You dismiss holy texts without reading them but say your specific holy text is correct and can't be dismissed without reading it.
Oh. And I never lie. There I said it. I must be telling the truth. After all, I don't lie. And I know I don't lie because I said I don't lie.
Also, I have 20 inch dick.

But to be fair. I was a tad harsh. I just saw you referring blindly to the bible in other posts. That is the kind of baseless claim you should avoid. But, as with any holy scripture or any scripture for that matter, if you can give a good reason as to why someone should accept it as true, you can use those bitts you've proven as true to support your claim, if it aligns.
Its just that I haven't ever seen anyone that did just that with a holy text.

If you are referring to giving you book, chapter and verse I'm not going to in such a wide open discussion, it would entail far to much time and I know you want except it. That's a lot of work for me that could be better spent with someone who might actually be seeking God. On the other hand if the discussion were narrowed I would us text to support what I say.

You see I've used the Bible verses before in discussions before just to have people here tell me I'm wrong and they are the ones who refuse to open the Bible let lone read it, especially with an open mind.

You sure seem to be waisting a lot of time, regardless, on us hopeless cases. I wouldn't think the extra work would be that much more of a drain than we already are. I mean, if we truly are hopeless, why debate with us on this forum at all? Go to a fucking soup kitchen or something instead and offer the word of Jesus to some vagabond who might be interested. You could be saving souls instead of 'wasting your time' on us. Either we are a waste of time and effort, or we are not. So either you are not putting in enough effort on us, or you are putting on too much.

But hey. Its okay. If your God wanted me to believe in him, I'm sure he would have made you, and the evidence he left behind, a lot more convincing.

This is a square, kid. You want to explain to me where my reasoning is wrong and how it makes the circle of 'free choice'? Protip: you have to point out where its not logical, not where 'scripture says so'.

First thing I'm not a kid. Secondly you have no idea what you are talking about so your definition of who God is doesn't wash. Until you study the scriptures you are backing up. The scriptures come from God telling us who He is unless you know of a better source. See how the Bible is the only one you need to read it. What you have said is not logical because you do not know what the definition of God's attributes are and you left out omnipresent which explains why you can't possibly understand who God is.

Alright. Not kid then.
I'm not berating you, bub, for not mentioning that I didn't mention omnibenevolence, now am I?

Good. We haven't been discussing the complete goodness of God so there isn't a need to.

So why the fuck berate me for not mentioning omnipresence because it somehow relates to our free will? Even though in this post you seem to imply it has nothing to do with it?
Do you even know what you are talking about? Do you even have a clear idea of the ideas you want to present? Because it seems lik all you do is deny my ideas without any good reason and then refuse to back up yours.
If you just want to shout at and berate heathens without being willing to do any of the work, that's your right. But I'd love the courtesy of you admitting that rather than you putting up this half-hearted attempt?

I didn't mention omnipresence because it is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. (See above.) I could have mentioned omnibenevolence, but it makes the entire thing less orderly and you already agree that God would prefer for everyone to come to him of his or her own 'free will'. And as you already seem to be struggling, I think it wise I didn't muddy the water here.

I find it funny or a deflection on your part to say I'm struggling with this discussion. I'm not struggling, I have a clear understanding of what I am saying and know it to be true. I think you left out omnipresent because you do not grasp how it relates to God. Omnipresent as I said earlier means that God is eternal, He is without beginning and without end, He lives continually in the past present and future, seeing all life in it's totality in the blink of an eye. Now I'm know there are scholars that could explain it more eloquently and precisely than this but in short that is what it means as who God is. It is so important that it's hard to discuss God and not use or at least understand this about Him.

You are correct in saying this discussion is spread thin because it encompasses a large amount about God because we are working with the eternal aspects of who He is. It would be better to take each one of the three and discuss then individually, but that would be nearly impossible because they are so intertwined with each other.

Its not a deflection. You are either failing to understand my point or you are failing to explain why my point fails.
You say in this post that omnipresence has no effect on our free will. All I talk about is how your idea of a God doesn't seem to allow free will.
So: Lets leave it out, right? Its just muddying the water. And the fact that you are bringing in stuff that you admit yourself doesn't relate to the conversation at hand is struggling at best and actualf deflection and deception at worst. But I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

I'm not twisting the burden of proof because I haven't tried to prove God to you, I'm telling you what I know about God because He has revealed such things to me and many other Christians. By the way if you make the claim God isn't real the burden of proof falls on you, I do not have to nor need to prove He is real I already know He is.

Yes, you don't seem to put much effort in trying to prove God. And that's okay, I don't need to watch your attempts at undertaking this Sisyphean task. But you do agree that, as you claim to know that he exists, the burden of proof is still on you, right? Wether you attempt to fullfill it or not.

This is an area that atheist like to push at rather hard because they know Christians can't give them the physical evidence they require from us. We can't and all the Christians I know of will tell you they can't and I never joined this site believing I could do the impossible. You see if you study the Bible you would find out that God doesn't intend for us to have such proof, we are to come to Him in faith through Christ and enter a living relationship in which He will reveal himself and leave no doubt that He is real and who He says He is. This has been my life for many years now and it is why I do not and will not budge an inch on the matter because I know God and that He is real as He promises He will do for those who will accept Christ into their lives. You will never get any physical proof from a Christian because we have a spiritual relationship with God not a physical one. This doesn't mean that God at some time for someone want give them some type of undeniable proof before they become a believer. I've never heard of it personally but who am I to say how God might do something that he wants to do.

As far as I'm concerned when one makes the claim God doesn't exist it's up to that person to prove to me that I'm wrong in my knowledge of God, seeing how I know without a doubt that God is real. 

You make the claim, you prove it. God is not an excemption. You being sure you are right is a shit reason for anyone to believe you are right.
We don't make a claim. We don't have to prove anything. Simple.

And I guess it's a good thing I'm not claiming there is no God. I'm just not impressed by the assertions and logical inconsistencies you fail to back up and explain respectively. I lack faith in your claim, mainly because you can't or at least won't defend it.

I have been defending what I believe ever since I joined this site and have expressed that I can't meet the parameters of proof set forth by the atheist here. God has not told us to prove Him to anyone in a physical sense because He will prove himself to them in a spiritual way will cause them to know He is real in the physical world. God has said that we are to defend what we believe and leave it to Him to do the proving.

Well, your God is doing a bad job at proving himself, isn't he? Its surprising seeing his omnipotence and omniscience.

Insofar all this has been, is me pointing out that your unicorn can't both be pink and invisible at the same time, if it were to exist.
You can't have a divine plan for everything by an all-powerful, all-knowing God that created our world and then have that creation act in a way he did not desire and foresee.

You haven't shown me anything, yes you have pointed to many things that are not true and in that you believe you have proven something that isn't in the least true.
God does have a divine plan and that plan can't and will not be changed, the plan does allow for free will for us to decide where we will spend eternity. God can and does make things happen in our lives but never to the point of causing us to believe outside our freedom of choice, remember He is omnipresent and thus know how to enter history without causing a change in our free will.

The god you believe in is one of determinism.
I'll try this one last time:
God's omnipotence allows him to create his creation in an infinite amount of ways, all with different results for the individuals inhabiting the creation based on how he creates his creation down to every tiny detail. God knows how any of these infinite possibilities will turn out of all of the inhabitants, due to his omniscience. There are options in these infinite options that allow everyone to come to God. (Otherwise, he is not omnipotent.) By choosing one option out of this platera of infinite options, he chooses which individuals come into being and what they will choose. Nothing therefore can be chosen without it being Gods choice for you to choose it. After all, he could have created the universe in such a way you would come to choose the exact opposite due to the slightly different circumstances. And its not that you have choice in this one as in opposite to that alternate creation. Because they were both equally viable options out of the infinite options for God to choose from.
An omniscient, omnipotent creator God implies determinism.

P.S. Sorry for the faulty quoting. I can't seem to get it right.

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