(October 23, 2017 at 6:48 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:(October 23, 2017 at 5:29 pm)speedyj1992 Wrote: 1. [edit] But my experience with God (and what I've heard from others who have also come to faith) is that it's a process. [edit]
2. [edit] how the apostles proclaimed Jesus to their deaths,[edit]
1. If god actually exists why would it take a process? All it would take is an appearance, showing up, proof that it exists in reality. The fact that it does not and requires a "process" only indicates that god is a man made fantasy. Maybe a useful fantasy for some, but still a fantasy.
2. So did the believers in Heavens Gate. So have thousands of other martyrs (not just christian). Not much of a point. People die for delusional beliefs all of the time.
The argument in response is that 1) God did show up, and revealed Himself to many people over many years. He is not obligated to us because we have forsaken Him and often continue to do so. Plus, you can't know an infinite God all at once when you're finite. That process needs to be there.
2) The difference is you're talking about people who came after the apostles. The apostles themselves didn't have to die for Jesus' name's sake, in theory, except that they clearly really believed the things they preached because they knew the man. Why would they die for something they didn't believe in?
