RE: God is so quiet
February 11, 2018 at 10:42 pm
(This post was last modified: February 11, 2018 at 10:52 pm by SteveII.)
(February 11, 2018 at 11:04 am)Grandizer Wrote: About the abstract, not really sure how the abstract can exist independently of the concrete. Existence is abstract, but what does this even mean without something existing concretely to allow for its expression? We may as well speak of non-existence instead of purely abstract existence because they seem to imply the same thing. What does "round" mean without the round objects it describes? What does "space-time" mean without the entity that possesses space-time coordinates? What do "numbers" mean without minds counting things? What does "beauty" mean without someone to perceive beauty?
You can definitely have a possible world where there is nothing concrete. One such possible world is where only God exists--or beings like him.
Your examples of abstract objects are all over the place. "Round" and "beauty" are contingent (and are therefore not necessary) properties. "Space-time" is not an abstract object at all. Only "numbers" are examples of necessary abstract objects.
(February 11, 2018 at 11:48 am)possibletarian Wrote:(February 11, 2018 at 10:34 am)SteveII Wrote: I listened. There might be a point to make about the possibility God created the universe and in doing so ceased to exist. However, that is only a solution to the argument and does not address the rest of the reasons to think God exists (personal experience, people claiming to be changed/minor miracles, the NT, etc.). As I have always stated, the case for Christianity is cumulative.
Also, don't buy the nonsense of going through the premises and having Matt say the conclusion does not follow. He knows very well that is the summary version and discussion on the crucial premises take pages and pages to show the reasoning. I think there is 60 pages in my Natural Theology textbook on this argument alone.
Your whole point boils down to your opinion that an explanation is not needed. What came first, your opinion that one is not needed or that your worldview does not have one?
God is not a brute fact. All these words have specific meaning. Learn what they are.
That's the silliest reply I've seen to date
How could god not be a brute fact to someone who believes god needs no explanation for its existence ?
Because words have meanings.
Brute fact: a fact that has no explanation
Necessary object: an object that exists by necessity of its own nature
Contingent object: an object that relies on something else for its existence.
If God exists, then part of what we are saying is that there exists a being that is the ultimate cause of all reality. If that is not what we are talking about, then we are not talking about God. God has a pretty standard definition. Therefore IF God exists, he does so necessarily--not contingently.
