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Did Muhammad exist?
#30
RE: Did Muhammad exist?
He wasn't denying anyone an education (that wiki editor was lazy).  He left christians with the choice to deny their own children education on account of the teachers being pagans.  Subversion, not persecution.  He knew that persecution didn't work.  More broadly, he considered christian teachers who made their living off the classics to be shameless hypocrites. 

Here's more-notice the bold.

Quote:
I hold that a proper education results, not in laboriously acquired symmetry of phrases and language, but in a healthy condition of mind, I mean a mind that has understanding and true opinions about things good and evil, honourable and base. Therefore, when a man thinks one thing and teaches his pupils another, in my opinion he fails to educate exactly in proportion as he fails to be an honest man. And if the divergence between a man’s convictions and his utterances is merely in trivial matters, that can be tolerated somehow, though it is wrong. But if in matters of the greatest importance a man has certain opinions and teaches the contrary, what is that but the conduct of hucksters, and not honest but thoroughly dissolute men in that they praise most highly the things that they believe to be most worthless, thus cheating and enticing by their praises those to whom they desire to transfer their worthless wares. Now all who profess to teach anything whatever ought to be men of upright character, and ought not to harbour in their souls opinions irreconcilable with what they publicly profess; and, above all, I believe it is necessary that those who associate with the young and teach them rhetoric should be of upright character; for they expound the writings of the ancients, whether they be rhetoricians or grammarians, and still more if they are sophists. For these claim to teach, in addition to other things, not only the use of words, but morals also, and they assert that political philosophy is their peculiar field. Let us leave aside, for the moment, the question whether this is true or not. But while I applaud them for aspiring to such high pretensions, I should applaud them still more if they did not utter falsehoods and convict themselves of thinking one thing and teaching their pupils another. What! Was it not the gods who revealed all their learning to Homer, Hesiod, Demosthenes, Herodotus, Thucydides, Isocrates and Lysias? Did not these men think that they were consecrated, some to Hermes, others to the Muses? I think it is absurd that men who expound the works of these writers should dishonour the gods whom they used to honour. Yet, though I think this absurd, I do not say that they ought to change their opinions and then instruct the young. But I give them this choice: either not to teach what they do not think admirable, or, it they wish to teach, let them first really persuade their pupils that neither Homer nor Hesiod nor any of these writers whom they expound and have declared to be guilty of impiety, folly and error in regard to the gods, is such as they declare. For since they make a livelihood and receive pay from the works of those writers, they thereby confess that they are most shamefully greedy of gain, and that, for the sake of a few drachmae, they would put up with anything. It is true that, until now, there were many excuses for not attending the temples, and the terror that threatened on all sides absolved men for concealing the truest beliefs about the gods. But since the gods have granted us liberty, it seems to me absurd that men should teach what they do not believe to be sound. But if they believe that those whose interpreters they are and for whom they sit, so to speak, in the seat of the prophets, were wise men, let them be the first to emulate their piety towards the gods. If, however, they think that those writers were in error with respect to the most honoured gods, then let them betake themselves to the churches of the Galilaeans to expound Matthew and Luke, since you Galilaeans are obeying them when you ordain that men shall refrain from temple-worship. For my part, I wish that your ears and your tongues might be “born anew,” as you would say, as regards these things in which may I ever have part, and all who think and act as is pleasing to me.


For religious and secular teachers let there be a general ordinance to this effect: Any youth who wishes to attend the schools is not excluded; nor indeed would it be reasonable to shut out from the best way boys who are still too ignorant to know which way to turn, and to overawe them into being led against their will to the beliefs of their ancestors. Though indeed it might be proper to cure these, even against their will, as one cures the insane, except that we concede indulgence to all for this sort of disease. For we ought, I think, to teach, but not punish, the demented.

Appropriate for the thread...we have here an actual person, Julian..who was re-imagined by the church as a cruel persecutor of christians and given a posthumous dishonorific.  His pointing out the effrontery of their faith (which persists to this day in exactly the same forms) necessitated that he be transformed into a legendary villain. 

If you go by the catholic churches history of the man..it reads like a demon's resume, lol.  True to type, words were placed into his mouth, "Nenikekas Galilaie", as a referendum on history. While he never said anything of the sort...I do think that the authors of that line got that one right - and the world suffered for it. With his death, any semblance of nascent secularism in the west died..and wouldn't be seen again for over a thousand years.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Messages In This Thread
Did Muhammad exist? - by Fake Messiah - February 12, 2018 at 4:21 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Minimalist - February 12, 2018 at 12:52 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Catholic_Lady - February 12, 2018 at 1:08 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Minimalist - February 12, 2018 at 1:36 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by paulpablo - February 12, 2018 at 3:10 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Fake Messiah - February 12, 2018 at 3:42 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Brian37 - February 12, 2018 at 4:00 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Wyrd of Gawd - February 12, 2018 at 7:34 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by drfuzzy - February 12, 2018 at 7:42 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Wyrd of Gawd - February 12, 2018 at 8:22 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Amarok - February 12, 2018 at 8:58 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by brewer - February 12, 2018 at 9:12 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Amarok - February 12, 2018 at 9:16 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by brewer - February 12, 2018 at 9:22 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Amarok - February 12, 2018 at 9:26 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by brewer - February 12, 2018 at 9:27 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by vulcanlogician - February 12, 2018 at 9:45 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Wyrd of Gawd - February 13, 2018 at 7:11 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Minimalist - February 12, 2018 at 10:53 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by The Grand Nudger - February 12, 2018 at 10:58 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by vulcanlogician - February 12, 2018 at 11:27 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by The Grand Nudger - February 12, 2018 at 11:43 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by vulcanlogician - February 13, 2018 at 12:22 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by The Grand Nudger - February 13, 2018 at 12:46 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Minimalist - February 13, 2018 at 1:14 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by The Grand Nudger - February 13, 2018 at 1:39 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by vulcanlogician - February 13, 2018 at 1:56 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Minimalist - February 13, 2018 at 2:01 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by The Grand Nudger - February 13, 2018 at 2:32 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by vulcanlogician - February 13, 2018 at 2:46 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by The Grand Nudger - February 13, 2018 at 2:54 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by vulcanlogician - February 13, 2018 at 3:15 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by GUBU - February 14, 2018 at 2:56 pm
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by The Grand Nudger - February 13, 2018 at 3:31 am
RE: Did Muhammad exist? - by Minimalist - February 13, 2018 at 7:50 pm

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