Why, God? Why?!

[Drich]

Holy Crap George, do you have an abridged version?

I think Khemikal has the right of it.

When we look at things like wants and desires, the things we value and the things we don't, there exists a material explanation in our origin as biological beings.  We evolved to have wants and desires and goals and values.  We hunger for food when it is necessary that we eat because if we didn't eat, we would die.  Evolution only preserves those solutions which are self-justifying.  Those animals that didn't get hungry and eat, they died, leaving the world to those that did.  Our wants and desires exist in us and other animals because if they didn't, those animals would be replaced in the gene pool by those that did.  So evolution provides a material explanation for both why we have wants, generally, and also why we have the specific wants and values that we do.  What explains why God has these specific wants, desires, goals, and values?

Let's define God.
Alpha and Omega the beginning and end to all things.. the great I am. Meaning God is who he wants to be and not confined by definitions or terms we use to describe him like omnibenelovent ect.. God has no beginning and no end. Meaning before there was time there was God.

If we can work with this definition then your answers to the source of God's wants, desires, and goals can be found in what was before the 'beginning.'
God and a vast nothingness. The celestial bodies sun/moon were to be used to count the passing of time. there fore God was alone in a dark nothingness void of creation. To want more than nothing. to want to create is not an evolutionary only need. if it were then why do those who can not have children still want them? IF the biological need is absent then where does the drive come from? If it were a primal need to populate the species then why are all driven to have kids that can? Wants desires, goals are conscious individual traits if they were then all species would share these conscious traits. I would argue these traits are only shared by those who are aware of themselves and others. The term "I am" shows such a consciousness.

As such His values are His own, again a trait of consciousness.

It's important to take a closer look at how our biology influences our psychology to underscore just how strange it is that an immaterial spirit would have a similar psychology.  For example, as a species, we depend upon one another for the success of the group.  We prosper as a species because we depend upon, and support, each others effort to live, succeed and breed.  We are a social species.  We live in groups, not as solitary individuals.  That has implications for our psychology.  We will have wants that prod us to engage in social behaviors.  We interact with one another because doing so is the ecological niche that we occupy as a species.  Why is God a social being?  It's not clear.

Did I miss something or did you fail to describe the origins for a physical need to not be alone? Then again if you did, then why do so many of us seek a more isolated life? (Why don't all live in big cities?)

I would argue it is our spiritual need that brings us together or keeps some of us apart not a physical one. Again it is all apart of the inner working of an individual consciousness.

We are a sexual species, in that we are divided into male and female, and the interaction of the two is necessary for our species survival.  One might dismiss it as a mere artifact, but God has always been described as sexed.  He is a he, not a she.  A father, rather than a mother.  And Jesus certainly was no eunuch.  As theology and apologetics evolve, Christians have tended to distance themselves from such ideas, but they are the history.  In the original time in which these ideas were developed, it was a part of our culture that the male of the species was the head, the leader, the source of authority and power.  This just naturally gravitated to their ideas about God.

Or the oppsite is true. Because God identified male He tasked the males to take the leadership role. (kinda how the bible says.)

A key aspect of our biology is that we have a parent child relationship, and humans tend to engage in long term bonding.  This makes sense because as an animal, we have few offspring, with larger brains, and we invest in that solution to the question of survival by having a prolonged period in which the child is dependent upon the parents.  We didn't have to be this way.  It is our biology which determines that we are.  We could be like the oak tree, that cares not where it's nuts may plant themselves and mature into adult oak trees.  Bacteria reproduce and depart from one another, never to be seen together again.  Many micro-organisms are similar.  The guppy doesn't care for her multitude of young after they are born.  Why is God more like us than like the guppy or the oak tree?  God wants a parent-child relationship with us.  Why?  What is the explanation?  Our biology explains why we are like this.  What is the explanation for God?

Wow, but wait a tick our "monkey brethern" are more like the might oak and guppies AND YET they share the larger more developed brain... They question then should be Why are we more like God? why do we in this instance distance ourselves from the darwin model that works all of the rest of the planet, in favor for a counter instintive spiritually driven policy that breaks shotgun approach to parenting the rest of the planet is apart of?

I would answer your question by pointing out that societies without God did indeed take heart the shotgun/spread your seed to as many as possible. It wasn't until most of the world learned of God to one degree or another did we change our views on children and marriage.

What about goals, plans, and values?  Basically these are tools for managing the complexity of our behavioral responses.

 Asked and answered. the product of consciousness.

They are psychological crutches which help us complete long term actions.

outlines, structures, frame work... crutches tomato taum-to

 If we want to become an engineer, we become college students and commit to a goal of completing an education.

Or we apprentice/teach ourselves, patent something, sell the patent roll it over into a business or R&D a new idea.

 If we want to live in a house, we develop a plan for sustained effort over time, either to earn enough money or to simply build a house.  Why does God have goals, and more specifically, why does he have the goals he does have?

Because man as a race has a collective intelligence that develops really slowly. God's goals are in often line with the social structure of Man. for instance. At no other time before the time of Christ would Christianity have worked/spread as it did. why? Roads. more specifically roman roads that linked all of the cities in those regions and even in far away places.

 Why did God choose these particular goals over some others?  

Because God knew what would work and when it would work....

Is it just a brute fact of his existence?  That he just "happened" to have these goals and plans and values?  Why?

for the lack of a better term: Omnipotence. God's plan coincides with the development of man or individually with us specifically.

It's also worth noting how much the definition of God mirrors the assumptions of the era of the men and women who developed our stories and conceptions of him.

Well that's poorly thought out crap statement.
Or is that why Jesus was beaten and placed on a cross? because His 'idea of God just so happen to coinside with the religious leaders and all of those chanting release barabus?

 I already noted the sexist bias of the original stories and concepts, but there's also the historical concepts of nation states, magic, and divine kingship.  God is described as "our Lord" and Jesus is called the king of the Jews.  This mirrors the political structures of the time, in which ultimate authority and power descended from a king or ruler.

The announced Christ King of the Jews because their last messiah was a King. The people simply did not understand who/what was comming and how they were being delivered. Jesus Himself when question about this very thing said He was not a king as the people understand the term.

 Except in Greece, there was little thought of distributing power equally among members of a society, such as in a democracy.  God is not an egalitarian; he inhabits a specific power structure.  That was also a time when the existence of empires and nations, and the commonplace acceptance of magic -- causing an effect by merely willing it to happen -- were readily accepted.  Thus we have a God who establishes a church and who does impressive feats of magic.  We no longer accept magic as commonplace.  Perhaps if God were re-imagined today, he would be an all encompassing machine.

Who's fault is that? Where in the bible does it say God must be a God of magic? The artifical qualifier of magic is a socio/religious requirement not one God commands.

And the details in which the God of such people as those who wrote the bible extend down to the question of values.

Again poorly thought out tripe. The very first time God wrote down those laws when moses returned He found the people doing the exact oppsite of everything that had been commanded. God's laws has ALWAYS BEEN COUNTER CULTURE! Look at us now. as 'evolved as you are' what does your 'gut tell you about the morality of homosexuality? what about slavery? now are you "progressive" ideas inline with or against God's laws?

 

We value life,

God does, "we" don't otherwise we would not have Abortion

individual autonomy,

unless you support trump or a non bann on sporting rifles.That said autonomy is not a requirment of the faith. in fact we are told if we are a slave then we should not run away, but honor God as a slave.

family,

which is why there is a 50% divorce rate

sex,

outside of marriage God values sex with in the confines of a sanctified marriage.

food,

just not fat people

shelter

not a prerequisite of being a follower of God.

, authority

We are taught to submit not to obtain or seek authority

, adulation

can agree with this one

, loyalty

50% divorce rate. maybe you mean loytality 1/2 the time is a 'biological trait.'

-- many things, all of which can be traced back to our biological nature.

before the Law of God none of these things were prized nor in most cases even true.

 

God appears to value many of the same things, which makes sense, as we are made in his image, but it doesn't explain why he values those things in the first place?

 They weren't. The entire book of Genesis was a testament to this.

Could God have had different values and still be God?

yes

 I don't see why not.  If that's the case, then God having the values he does, and mandating them to us, seems rather arbitrary.

 
Since Christ, to a degree you are right. The law now is only used to show the unrepentant that they are in sin and need repent. After we become a follower the law becomes moot.

God essentially says my way or the highway,

ONLY TO THOSE WITHOUT CHRIST
With Christ as your advocate He takes on our sin, and we take on His righteousness. Thus God will judge us as He would judge Christ.

despite the fact that there doesn't seem to be any meaningful reason which answers the question of why God's way is in any sense privileged and right.

House rules. Do you go to a cansino and expect to play holdem as you do at home?

 

God's values just seem to have "just happened."  He is the way he is for no particular good reason; he "just is."  

Partially true. they Happened to a small tribe of people who beget a sacrifice for sin that would remove the burden of God's law from us all. Leaving only the choice we make concerning when and where we wish to spend eternity.

Now one can imagine that there might be multiple explanations for why these facts apply.  One obvious explanation is that God is nothing more than a projection of the minds of mortal men, working in an ignorant age.

 Says the person who claim to have read the bible yet does not seem to understand all the push back the prophets and Jesus Himself underwent when they tried to introduce God/God's law to the people you claim invented it! Again how could these people invent God's law when they Killed everyone who brought God's message?

They attributed our wants and desires and behaviors to our personhood, to our spirit or soul.  For them, to imagine the ultimate person, God, was simply to take the human template and blow it up to larger proportions.  God becomes everything that a man is, only bigger.  He has all the things that a rational, loving man has, and more.  He's not only powerful, he's uber powerful!  He not only knows stuff, he knows everything!  They were drawing from their imaginations the qualities that they thought exemplified the existence of a perfect soul.  But in this they erred.  They didn't know that many of our psychological traits can be attributed to our material existence as biological beings.  How could they know?  Evolutionary theory and neuroscience were centuries ahead of them in the future.  They imagined a God based upon their assumption of what made a thinking man -- a Logos in the vernacular -- what he was, and simply extrapolated from those errant assumptions.

But again at our best (Pharisees and Saducees) Jesus has nothing but contempt for their 'holy understanding and efforts." He tried to make changes with and and these men who 'invented god supossedly' Killed Him..

Again how is it they kill a god they invent all the while pushing a corrupt religion that looks nothing like wha the bible describes? How does this again happen in the dark ages? how does this keep happening over and over where we corrupt God's word to only have be brought back to center by a teacher or prophet of somekind? YET claim authorship of a God we contrast so greatly???? Seriously think this through and don't just keep repeating the same old we invented God that is why he is like us. In truth we at our core are nothing like God. your 'mordern morality' should be testiment enough to that fact.

Now, I'm not saying this is the only possible explanation for why your God has the peculiar psychology that he does have, but the mystery remains.  I don't have an explanation that fits better than the one above, but I'm no longer a theist.  Perhaps I'm overlooking an obvious explanation for why God is the way he is, and I leave it up to you to provide that explanation.  Failing a suitable explanation, God's nature just becomes a brute fact; he isn't the way he is for any particular reason, he could have been different, he "just is" the way he is, as a random and arbitrary fact of existence.  So theists, what's your explanation?

What example of consciousness in created content? meaning what consciousness being does not want more? what semi intelligent being does not work/plan to obtain what they want? Why would God be any different?

If to want is a manifestation of evolution, then why don't other products of evolution want things? (on the scale of God/Man)

I will also share with you that my concern is not solely motivated by LadyForCamus' question, the subject of God's values has been on my mind for some time.  The typical explanation for why God has the moral values he does is that there exists a right set of moral values, and a wrong set, and it's just a brute fact that God has only the right set of moral values (what these moral values are right with respect to, or in relation to, is never fully explained).

 Again, God's values are arbertary after repentance. They only exist to show one need repent/has fallen short. Once you accept this and confess your sin, then you will be judged as Christ would be judged.

But fine.  It's an article of faith that God is good, and no deviation from that mantra will be tolerated.

Again the rules of law are meaningless outside of identifying sin. Once identified one repents, we become free from the law to define or establish our righteousness before God. That righteousness comes as a gift from Christ alone. it has nothing to do with our works. What you are describing is a mix of ot judism and Christianity. Not how the bible Jesus/Paul teaches.

 Fine, fair enough.  But then we come to the question of God's values.  

We are meant to question God's values 1 Thess 5:21
question all things and hod on to what is Good.

this does not mean only question the questionable it also means we must question the foundational.

Surely he has some, any being without values must be forced to depend upon reflex actions to motivate them to do anything, but then God isn't a biological being, so the concept of reflexes doesn't apply.

 Jesus has spent much time as a human/biological being.

So there are two questions here.  Why does God have values at all, as they seem to be an artifact of a biological nature, and not something an immaterial spirit would have?

 God's values are based on His will and desire to live as one and in harmony with all of creation. which can not be done if a member of creation is rebelling against his very being/nature. (sin.) Imagine God wanting to live in a community with us. but all who live there must follow his laws. Now imagine those who do not wish to follow his laws want the freedom to live with God, but follow their own rule. would the two not eventually clash? That is what happened with lucifer and the angels when 1/3 rebelled and were cast out. So now seeks those in this life who simply desire to want to live in his community without sin even if they can not live without sinning. because even at great cost sin can be attoned for, but what is not forgivable is the desire to remain in rebellion despite all that has been done.

And secondly, if God's specific values are simply a brute fact of his existence, they "just are," doesn't that make them essentially arbitrary and therefore meaningless?  Unlike moral values, there does not appear to be a right and a wrong set of normal values.  Their "rightness" is a consequence of the context, namely what processes and behaviors they facilitate, and in our case, a consequence of evolution that we have them.  So, again; why?

again to simply idetify sin in a person's life, so that they be moved to repent and accept the attonement offered by Christ. Again "righteousness" only points to those who if given a choice would stop sinning if they could. That is what repentance is about. Not my way or the high way. God knows we are all slaves to sin and do not expect us to stop sinning just because we accept him or the church.

This has prompted me to reformulate the Euthyphro dilemma into a form which seems to target a lacuna in Christian theology.  Namely, what is the foundation of God's values, their explanation, so to speak.  This leads to a new and different dilemma:

"Does God value certain thing because those things are valuable of their own accord, or are certain things valuable because God values them?"

If they had value aside from what God assignes them they God is not the alpha and omega. He does not have first and final say. if there is an intrinsic value in a moral law then that law becomes the supreme authority and not God.
As such we have already discussed the triviality of His laws, because they only pertain to us in an unlicensed fashion. Meaning example can be found where just about each command has been broken in a lawful way through the OT.
It's not the law, it's the "I said so" that gives the law authority. Which again only points to the need to repent, and then the law becomes moot to the believer, even if it does not change or go away (as it remains to judge the unrepentant.)

Ultimately, I see this as related to the questions of meaning and purpose.  Our values are the building blocks out of which we create meaning and purpose in our life.  We value having a loving, nurturing relationship with another human being, so we find having and raising children meaningful.  If God's values likewise are the foundation of the meaning and purpose he provides for people's lives, it is essential that we provide some foundation for those values, otherwise they are arbitrary, vacuous, and meaningless.  How can a set of values that are themselves just brute, arbitrary facts of his existence ever serve as the building blocks for truly meaningful lives?  To my view, unless an explanation for God's values is given, it's impossible to derive any meaning based simply on "what he wants and values."  Maybe I've overlooked something, but it appears to me that life under God is as essentially meaningless and without purpose as the supposed lives of non-believers.

Life under God provides support, understanding and more importantly a sense of completeness even when isolated, It also provvides direct communication with the Holy Spirit which is a whole nother box of experiences. Something I come to rely on heavily, and can't imagine life without.

Please don't take this the wrong way but I see this who OP are a big empty earnest plea for enlightment and understanding.

Now you might just have pooped yourway through everything I said and think you are better for it... but here's the thing.. I don't have these question, I haven't for a long long time. Honestly there isn't a thing I wonder about that God on somelevel (that I can understand) has not given me a direct answer. Your whole OP shows me the absolute darkness you live in and I see a struggle to understand it. Even so you claim you can not see how living under God would improve your lot... Again imagine given the keys to God's libary meaning you are given answers to all that your mind can phathom.. heck I have been given answers I had no understand of and worked my way back into years later. (those are the ones that humble you)

Not bragging just trying to share what I have