Intelligence is a Curse

[Ryft]

Could you elaborate further on what you meant here?

Sure, no problem. Aleialoura said, "If Christians are going to defend and claim to live by the Bible, then they should invoke all the laws in the Bible," which I understood from the context of her post to mean also those laws found in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc. But to do this would require the Christian to toss biblical exegesis right out the window, ignoring the structure, form, context, themes, soteriological paradigms and so forth contained in the text. It is quite absurd to expect Christians who defend and claim to live by the Bible to do so while ignoring what it says. In other words, those who defend and claim to live by the Bible must do so with the tools for understanding what it says (biblical exegesis)—and what it says is precisely why Christians do not invoke the laws found in Leviticus and so forth. (This gets into covenant theology, the structure by which the biblical text organizes itself, which is both deeply involved and outside the context of this discussion.)

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Fundamentalist young-earth creationists are a minority? Where are you from? They're everywhere. It's unfortunate.

I do not need to be from anywhere in particular to understand that the vast majority of Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants reject young-earth creationism. It is a minority of Christians—typically Baptist, Seventh-Day Adventist, Pentecostal and so forth—who subscribe to that unbiblical, illogical, and unscientific view. (And I say this with a heavy burden on my heart because I am Baptist myself. But I have a glimmer of hope because there are a few in my church who express a willingness to reconsider their view if shown how to understand Genesis rightly, which I am quite happy to help with.) True, these fundamentalists are everywhere, but they still represent a (very vocal) minority of Christianity. I would recommend to you Ronald L. Numbers, The Creationists: From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design (Harvard University Press, 2006).

That statement was in regards to cherry-pickers. I was denoting hypocrisy.

And what hypocrisy was that, exactly? (See my response to Faith No More above.)

Have you read them [Deuteronomy and Leviticus]? If so, I really don't understand why you need evidence.

You said that the reason why Christians "selectively disregard Deuteronomy and Leviticus is because it's no longer a part of our culture." Please cite the evidence which shows that this is their reason for disregarding old covenant laws, rituals, and practices (e.g., books or articles where Christians say this), so myself and others can verify your claim.

I was using the word 'daft' in the [sense of] "mad, insane."

Is this a clinical diagnosis, or just you hurling gratuitous invective at people who believe differently from you?

I'm sure whatever the inane point, it was inspired by Jesus. I'm sure he is so proud of you—wherever he is.

So I was right. Color me underwhelmed.

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Hm. I'm not sure how to respond to this. I think what I'm saying is aligned with both Romans & Ephesians. In Ephesians it says that he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

All right, so this is the point to which I was driving you. You were, it turns out, confusing election with predestination; i.e., the elect are those chosen by God (by definition), and predestination is the path for which they were chosen, which begins with their being called and ends with their being glorified. Predestination simply denotes that God has a set purpose for those he elected or chose which he will not fail to bring to pass. In other words, they are not predestined to come to the Lord so much as elected or chosen to. What they are predestined for is justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification—that is, God's redemptive purpose for them. I am glad that you are conscious of the "golden chain of redemption" in Romans 8:28–30; hopefully you are aware that "foreknew" in v. 29 is a verb, conveying the activity of God's electing love (as Paul elaborates upon through the rest of chapter 8 and into chapter 9). So your statements were on target, but you mixed the words up. Here are your statements reworded:

"Those who are elected to come to the Lord will be seeking to live according God's pleasure and will. Sometimes they will start out as lost (e.g., Josh McDowell), sometimes they will start out as ignorant (e.g., Lee Strobel), but when the Lord makes himself known the elect will come and they will follow hard."

There are people who want to know God; but they don't know who he is, so they seek him.

Agreed. But those are the ones chosen by God, the ones whose names were in the book of life from the foundation of the world; they seek him only because he enabled and drew them, as your reference to John 6 explains. "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him," Jesus said (v. 65). And as he confidently stated earlier, "All that the Father gives me will come to me" (v. 37). Those whom God chose and gave to the Son will heed that calling without fail when it comes; thus Paul can say things like, "And all who were appointed for eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48; cf. 16:14).

However, this does not justify your claim that people "are born with the ability to choose to come to Christ from their own desire to know him" (emphasis mine). That is what I am requesting scriptural warrant for. It is the Pelagian heresy which to this day still lacks biblical evidence (which is why it is deemed heretical), so I would be deeply interested if you have scriptural warrant for it.

The teachings of Jesus Christ do not push men to perform good works as an avenue for salvation ...

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think what you mean is: "We do not do good works to be saved, but rather because we are saved" (i.e., saving faith produces good works). So if those who do not have faith in Christ for their salvation strive to follow the teachings of Jesus, they gain nothing and lose everything.

Right before the portion of Matthew that you quoted above Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

And what is the will of the Father? "To believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us" (1 John 3:23); cf. John 6:28–29, "Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?' Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent'."