RE: Evidence for a god. Do you have any ?
October 8, 2018 at 2:27 pm
(This post was last modified: October 8, 2018 at 3:02 pm by SteveII.)
(October 8, 2018 at 1:01 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: Steve, do you have any facts or information that would indicate that the proposition "a god exists" is true ?
I just listed like 20 points that qualify for "facts or information". In those 20 points was the unbroken, reported personal experiences of God from like a billion people. Is a billion pieces of "fact or information" enough?
Quote:Let's start by describing the god you believes exists and how you obtained this description.
Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, creator of all there is, the God partially revealed in the OT and then the incarnation described in the events of the NT as a God who sacrificed for us and who wants to have a personal relationship with us.
Information from: natural theology, revealed theology, inferred systematic theology, personal experience of me and others.
I notice that you seem to have a need to keep the conversation as vague as possible. You actually asked for theists to answer your OP. But I think that you thought you would get answers that you could just dismiss with a condescending line or two about the Bible. Your actual knowledge of the subject is so weak that you need to keep things vague to mask it. If I'm right, you are nothing more than a simple-minded member of the atheist echo chamber. Congrats.
If I am wrong, you will address my evidence point by point as your OP implied you wanted to discuss.
Which is it? Simple-minded or intelligent discussion.
(October 8, 2018 at 12:02 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote:
(October 8, 2018 at 8:59 am)SteveII Wrote: 1) You have an 'alternative explanation' to the NT that has evidence? That would be a first.
2) There is an 'alternate explanation' to billions of people's experience? Is it a billion explanations or just one covers everyone?
3) There is an 'alternate explanation' why anything exists? Do tell.
4) There is an 'alternate explanation' for where the universe came from? Do tell.
5) There is an 'alternate explanation' for consciousness? Do tell.
1) Not me, per se -- Biblical scholars. I personally prefer Bart Ehrman's detective work which concludes that the historical Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet, based on a careful study of the Gospels.
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Apocalyptic...art+ehrman
2) Billions of people can and do misinterpret their personal experiences, as psychology has shown.
https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Gorilla...le+gorilla
3 and 4) You are assuming that the universe came from nothing, which even the big bang theory does not assume. The universe, in some form, may have existed forever. After all, energy doesn't seem to be either created or destroyed, just transformed. We don't really know yet, but your jumping to conclusions proves nothing. Further, other scientists have speculated how it is indeed possible for something to come from nothing (without anything supernatural involved).
https://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothing-...e+big+bang
5) Consciousness is not a separate being, it is a process of physical bodies and specifically physical brains. It varies with brain chemistry and structure.
https://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Sci...sciousness
So yes, there are alternative explanations for each of your points, and from my perspective every one is more probable than yours because they do no depend on the existence of a whole other spiritual or supernatural dimension to reality. The more moving parts any explanation requires, the less probable it's likely to be. Your explanations are way too complicated for what they are required to explain.
I am happy to discuss each point with you in as much detail as you like. However, I am not going to have dueling Amazon book links. Pick one and give me the basics.
I'll start on the one you did actually expand on. The reason there must be a first cause is that a infinite amount of past causes/effects is not logically possible. There is no such possibility as an actual infinite number of anything in the real world. If there were an infinite number of past events, we could never have gotten to the events of today because there would still need to be an infinite amount of events that need to pass before we can get to today.
No scientist has ever had a theory where things come into being ex nihilo.