(October 17, 2018 at 11:37 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:(October 17, 2018 at 9:53 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I wouldn't use the word "prove", but that is more a matter of precision. Proof is for deductive logic and math. And often, I'm not setting out to "prove" anything. I find that most atheists here are familiar with the evidence, even if they cannot admit it as such (I've talked to some to seem to indicate, that it is not evidence, unless they believe the conclusion).
I don't want to single you out here, because I see this a lot on both sides. The word "prove" can mean to demonstrate with absolute certainty, but it can also mean to simply establish the truth of something as more probable than not, or to a good degree. Thus people who complain about the use of the word, IMHO, are at best deflecting, and at worst creating a straw man simply to shift the discussion away from where it was. I find this type of maneuver rather annoying, personally. The word has multiple meanings. This is not a new thing, nor is the focusing on one meaning of a word to the exclusion of others a new thing. I just want to issue a plea to people to curb any illegitimate uses of such distinctions, on both sides.
In regards the definition provided below, something I omitted but which is informative is that Merriam-Webster uses the example of "the charges were never proved in court." Court proceedings do not establish facts with absolute certainty, but rather beyond a reasonable doubt. The usage of the word prove is shown to have alternate meanings to that of to demonstrate with absolute certainty with their example.
"Merriam-Webster Wrote:prove verb, transitive
1 archaic : to learn or find out by experience
2a : to test the truth, validity, or genuineness of
2b : to test the worth or quality of
specifically : to compare against a standard —sometimes used with up or out
2c : to check the correctness of (something, such as an arithmetic result)
3a : to establish the existence, truth, or validity of (as by evidence or logic)
3b : to demonstrate as having a particular quality or worth
4 : to show (oneself) to be worthy or capable
I understand and largely agree. I also find in such discussions, that it often move to a standard of absolute certainty , and I wanted to make the distinction up front. I don’t think that I used it to stop discussion or to make a straw man, but for clarification. It also only is a deflection, if we have two different understandings.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther