Atheism, Deism & Christianity

[Cinjin]

Lucent and I began a mild debate unintentionally by way of PMs. The two of us have decided to place this on the forum simply to have the ability to respond back and forth without need of PMs and the limitations of that process. This debate has no more importance than any other thread and we are certainly not here to declare a winner. It is a private conversation that you are certainly welcome to view if you so choose, but for this particular thread, you will not be able to give your input.

To bring both you and us up to speed, I have posted some slightly edited messages from our ongoing conversation ...

So you enforce some rules but not others, and atheists are favored..got it.

(EDITED)
You're partially right. This is an atheists forum. ATHEIST. So of course they are favored, just like christians are favored at a Christian forum, which by the way does not give atheists even CLOSE to the leeway that we give you here.

Unlike I'm sure you've been told, most atheists don't hate you. Yes, most of us here hate your religion - no surprise there, but you are welcome here and I hope you find a way to accept the rules and work with them.

PM RESPONSE:

I have no trouble with following the rules. I am sorry to inform you though that more often than not, the atheists I meet attack and ridicule me, tell me I am intellectually deficient, and go out of their way to say the most perverse and hateful things about God that they possibily can. That's the sad reality of it. I have found that a lot of people mislabel themselves as atheists when they are in fact anti-theists. Of course, I know they don't really hate me because they don't know me..it's much like the angry person who has a problem with a company and calls up customer service to chew out the support rep. I have just resigned myself to this treatment; I expect it from atheists, and when someone treats me like a human being, it is a nice suprise.

PM RESPONSE:

(EDITED)
I have found most theists (Christians specifically) bring it on themselves. The ones who do well here, understand three things very well.
1. Ridicule of you and your god are going to be common place and will lessen over time. Get use to it or move on.
2. Blasphemy is only blasphemy to the believer. This should not be a surprise since christians don't get remotely offended when we mock Allah.
3. There is no tangible proof of god. Faith does not require proof so why bother fighting so hard to sell it to an atheist.

Theists often feel picked on here - and yet, they are still here. Why? If you're a theist, you have to ask yourself why you're on a website where you feel hated. We certainly wonder why. We have found that many theists lie to themselves as much as they lie to us and find that in the end they were only ever here to tell us all how wrong we are and how we're going to burn in hell. Many people take great pleasure in condemning others to any fate they see fit.

You can imagine how old this gets. There is NOTHING that you can offer us that we have not heard thousands of times before. Nothing. Furthermore, there is no proof of god, so why bother? Have your beliefs and enjoy them. We certainly don't care. What is infuriating is theists who come in here immediately throwing their "righteous wisdom" around and pretending that they're just here to have intelligent conversation, when we KNOW differently.

Many of us, myself included, are extremely well-versed in the scriptures and the history of Christianity and if you're going to debate guys like us, (Min, Rhythm, DP, etc.) you better damn well be able to back it up, cause those who can't, or simply use rhetoric from the Bible, get insulted and their ass handed to them. Then of course come whining to us and crying how they can't get a fair shake and all the atheists are mean. When in reality, the atheists were far better prepared, far better educated, with actual documented history and the christian in question simply had nothing to stand on.

My point I guess? Once you come to the realization that your religion can be important to you without it having to be important to the rest of us - you'll be a theist worth having around. What I mean by that ... one that respects the fact that other people don't have to believe the way you do.

PM ADD. RESPONSE:

... the atheists I meet attack and ridicule me, tell me I am intellectually deficient, and go out of their way to say the most perverse and hateful things about God that they possibly can ... Of course, I know they don't really hate me because they don't know me ... I have just resigned myself to this treatment; I expect it from atheists, and when someone treats me like a human being, it is a nice surprise.

(EDITED)
By the way, it's the same for us. It's a massive surprise when a christian offers us the respect we have earned. Imagine being told every other day that you're going to burn in hell, and not only being told that, but being told by an idiot that has never even read the entirety of his Bible. Better yet, imagine being told that by Muslims and Jews as well - only after arguing with each other about who's hell we're going to burn in. Add in the hundreds of denominations of all these religions and you get the idea of why we are so very angry. No proof exists and yet they try to sell it to us like a cold hard fact, when even they might be subscribing to the wrong religion.

All anybody really wants in this life is a little respect. This is how atheists (and deists) feel: Believe whatever you want. We don't care in the least ... just stop forcing it on everyone else. We never get Buddhists in here trying to slam their religion down our throat … it’s not a “theist” thing.

We're not anti-theist. If we were anti-anything, it would be anti-christian/muslim, because they refuse to live and let live.

---

PM RESPONSE:

Atheists certainly don't live and let live. The communities of atheists I have found are frequently on the attack, raiding Christian websites and actively proselytizing, trying to convert people. All they seem to do all day is talk about how stupid they think theists are, and how to undermine them.

It's also confusing to me that you're acting like I have invaded your home. Why in the world do you have a debate forum if you don't want to debate theists? Where are there sections in this forum to discuss the various religions and beliefs?

I give respect to everyone I meet, because I see all people as being in the image of God. I definitely do not get the same treatment from atheists. Or deists for that matter..you both act very similiar except of course that deists don't deny God, they just deny my God. To me a deist is just an atheist who can't deny there is a spirit. Other than that, I see no practical difference. Perhaps you can enlighten me, but isn't deism just a denial of Gods person and character? Isn't it just saying.."I'm intellectually honest enough to admit there is a God..but that is as far as I am going to go"?

PM RESPONSE:

Atheists certainly don't live and let live. The communities of atheists I have found are frequently on the attack, raiding Christian websites and actively proselytizing, trying to convert people. All they seem to do all day is talk about how stupid they think theists are, and how to undermine them.

I agree. Some atheists are assholes. Some christians are assholes. My point was not that atheists are somehow perfect, but rather that christians hold themselves above our actions when theirs are equally the same (and even more offensive in my opinion).

It's also confusing to me that you're acting like I have invaded your home. Why in the world do you have a debate forum if you don't want to debate theists? Where are there sections in this forum to discuss the various religions and beliefs?

You have not invaded my home nor have I given you that impression. In fact I have stated several times that we would like you to stay and that you can even throw out a few insults as long as you stay on point and don't preach. We encourage debate. We do NOT encourage preaching and I will not apologize for this. What you and I are doing right now is debating so your point is completely mute.

I give respect to everyone I meet, because I see all people as being in the image of God.

I don't need the image of God to give you respect and even saying that implies that atheists are not capable of respect - which is some more of that insulting behavior I mentioned in my last PM.

I definitely do not get the same treatment from atheists. Or deists for that matter..you both act very similiar except of course that deists don't deny God, they just deny my God.

I already told you that atheists get preferred treatment on an ATHEIST site. Expecting more is ridiculous as your brothers in christ would not offer us equal treatment on their sites. I know this for a fact as I have been treated horribly on christian sites - and even banned for nothing more than asking a question about scripture.

To me a deist is just an atheist who can't deny there is a spirit. Other than that, I see no practical difference.

To me a christian is just a muslim born on the wrong continent. Other than that, I see no practical difference. You see? It doesn't matter what I think, you're still going to hold your faith in the same regard as you always have. So will I, regardless of what you think.

Perhaps you can enlighten me, but isn't deism just a denial of Gods person and character?

All the established religions of the world are considered "revealed religions". Deism is considered "natural religion". In other words, we don't pretend to know God. We don't assign him a personality or the human attributes that yours and many other religions assign him/her/it. To do so is dishonest as we believe there is no way to know the Creator of the universe. If you feel that this is a denial of your god's person and character, than feel free to thinks so. Obviously we do indeed deny your god's character, and all the world's gods for that matter. On a side note, you'll notice that all the world's gods, especially yours, are all-powerful amazing beings that have never been proven to exist and yet somehow, amazingly enough, all have painfully human characteristics. Jealousy, wrath, envy, kindness, mercy, vengeance, etc. It is obvious to a deist that any god that has human characteristics, especially so many horrible ones, is a concoction of the human mind. A made up entity.

I am not telling you this to convert you, as we believe that your soul is already spoken for regardless of what you believe. I'm only telling you because you asked. I couldn't care less what you choose to believe, just as long as you keep it to yourself.

Isn't it just saying.."I'm intellectually honest enough to admit there is a God..but that is as far as I am going to go"?

No. There's more to it than just what you choose to believe.

PM RESPONSE:

I don't need the image of God to give you respect and even saying that implies that atheists are not capable of respect - which is some more of that insulting behavior I mentioned in my last email.

Well, you're speaking to a former agnostic. I acknowledge that you are capable of being respectful for other reasons. I give universal respect for the reason I gave, even to people who are being disrepectful to me. It's not just a reason..like, oh I must give respect to this person because they are in the image of God. It's that I experience that everyone is in the image of God that respect comes automatically. I fully acknowledge atheists, agnostics, deists etc are capable of moral behavior and human decency, because I believe everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong.

I already told you that atheists get preferred treatment on an ATHEIST site. Expecting more is ridiculous as your brothers in christ would not offer us equal treatment on their sites. I know this for a fact as I have been treated horribly on christian sites - and even banned for nothing more than asking a question about scripture.

I'm sure that is true. I'm on several Christian forums where that is not true, though, and atheists have their own sections and are welcome to ask questions. I don't expect atheists to treat me any better than dirt, so that isn't the issue. I was just remarking that it is very common for me to receive that kind of treatment. It's not anything that needs to be dwelled on. It doesn't really bother me.

I'll address your replies about religion on the forum.