Atheism, Deism & Christianity

[Cinjin]

That's the reply I expected. Arguing this point would be futile with a man who thinks that millions people are receiving legitimate visions from his particular god. My own father is a DEVOUT fundamentalist and doesn't even believe that nonsense. I'll leave it at the fact that I think it's ludicrous and I'll go ahead and just move on.

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The more I researched my Bible and the documented history of Christianity the more I realized how utterly 'the same' it was as all the rest. Plus, by the time I was in grade school I thought it twisted and evil to scare people into salvation.

I'm surprised at this comment because anyone who has studied comparitive religion knows that there are big differences between Christianity and the other religions. You might find some superficial contrasts here and there, but overall, Christianity is unique among them.

Actually, blood cleansing, human sacrifice, baptism, virgin births, etc. etc. came about long before Christianity did. In order to make your statement even remotely true, you need to first eliminate the improvable and ignorant phrase, “anyone who has studied” , and then finish with “some superficial contrasts are all that separate Christianity from other religions such as Zoroastrianism or Islam among many others.”

First, because salvation is by Grace and not works.

Galatians 2:16

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Other forms of religion subscribe to a system of works which will somehow make us "good" enough to please God. Christianity says that no one is good enough to merit favor, and that it only by grace we are saved.

Not according to the Catholics pal … and by the way, they’re not exactly some obscure Christian sect – they’re kinda one of the big shots on the Christian scene. Works are extremely important and I know for a fact that even when a catholic dies they believe that their loved ones have to pray them into heaven. That ain’t grace alone pal. Let me guess – catholics are wrong right?? Which of the hundreds of Christian sects are wrong??? Let me guess – yours has it all figured out right?

Second, Christianity isn't a religious system, it is a direct relationship with God.

And who makes you an authority worthy of making that statement??? It most certainly is a religious system and the fact that you claim it is not is simply ridiculous. It may very well be the BIGGEST religious system in the world.

A relationship that God initiated and actively maintians. We believe that humans were created for this purpose, but separated from God because of sin. That's why Jesus Christ came to Earth, to restore that relationship. He paid the price no one else could pay. Other religions teach about the works you must do to work off your evil, and hope the scales weigh at the end..but the work of Jesus Christ is finished. His death on the cross satisfied the requirements of the law, and by His stripes are we healed. He overcame the world and conquered death on Calvary. He rose again and ascended to the right hand of the power of God, where He lives to make intercession for believers forever.

Further, those who have been redeemed by His blood, are adopted into the family of God as His own children, sons and daughters of God. Believers are also the very "body of Christ", of which He is the head. There no other religion that makes anything even approaching these kind of claims.

This rhetoric doesn’t offer anything in the way of validation for your point. None. It’s just your take on Christianity and your CLAIM that it’s so very different. At the very best it’s only subtly different and making claims that its some unique special religion just because you don’t want to research properly does not make it true.

The third thing is the resurrection itself. His life, death and resurrection were witnessed by many, even hostile witnesses. It is proof that Jesus did what He said He would do. Only in Christianity do we have the person of Christ, who claimed to be God, peformed miracles to prove it, died and rose from the dead, and claimed that He alone is the way the truth and the life, and that no comes to the Father but by Him.

I love it. Here we go again. “Witnessess” recorded in the only book used to “prove” the deity of Jesus Christ. Tell you what. I’ll write a book about how I banged 10 super models one night and I’ll have a friend of mine write in that SAME book how there were 35 witnesses to this amazing event, and 1000 years from now, someone can say, “it MUST be true, there were witnesses!”

Also, people don't come to Christianity out of fear. I know I certainly didn't.

Ridiculous, improvable, and a non-sequitur. Just because you didn’t join the sheep pen out of fear hell-fire doesn’t mean a thing. I was at many “home town revivals” where HELL was a huge motivator, and it is just ignorant to think otherwise. Even Christians I currently know admit this.

People come to Christianity because they know they need a savior, and that savior is Jesus Christ. Anyone coming to Christianity because they're afraid of hell, I would say that is a false conversion at best. Try reading peoples testimonies some time. I could point you to hundreds, or even thousands of them that fear of hell doesn't factor in. If you know God exists, the logical thing is to get to know Him. People who know God exists come to Christ to be healed.

Completely improvable. Please point me to thousands who can vouch for this fact. Is there a list of names with sworn affidavits on a website somewhere? An impossible and ludicrous assertion followed by an even more ridiculous non-squitur: “If you know God exists, the logical thing is to get to know him.” Utterly illogical. First neither of us KNOWS without some measure of faith that God exists and even if we did, it does not follow suit that we should then “get to know him” or would even have the ability to do so. Some of us don’t like to rely on the scribblings of ancient half wits to find out what god was trying to say.

It sounds like you never gave your life over to Jesus. There are many ex-christians like you who became disillusioned because they never understood its a personal relationship, not a bunch of rules you follow.

I tried on several different religions including both atheism and agnosticism. I found deism gave me the peace of mind I was looking for --- which is... stop worrying about all this bull shit - it's out of your hands. Which in my opinion, is not that far away from an atheists view anyway, which is maybe why I like them so much.

So in other words, you believe in Deism because you want to?

Correct. Just like you believe in an angry desert god because you want to. OR WAIT … are you implying that you don’t have free will?!?!? Are you telling me that you didn’t necessarily want to and possibly still don’t??? But rather feel like there is no other choice?!?!?! Is that what you’re saying?!?!?

Think hard before you answer this one. Your question was loaded … obviously so are mine.

I have no idea. Nor do I care. Once again, I remind you, I don't worship God and since there is no way for me to know him, I will only assume the most basics of things. One would be that he exists, and two that he created on some level ... or as DP would say, "got the ball rolling."

You're making a huge assumption by saying He isn't involved. So I'll ask, why do believe that He isn't?

I’ve addressed this. Pay attention.

It is pointless foolishness to pretend that you know who God is and then pretend that he's talking to you by means of an ancient book ... or in any way whatsoever. This is one of the most essential parts of deism: I don't believe in God because I need him. I don't need him anymore than he needs me. He is not a part of my life in any way. I believe in God because for some reason, unbeknownst to me, I like the idea, and I like having an ounce of faith to my 1000 lbs of rational logic.

It's hardly foolish or pointless if God has directly communicated with us. And you only partially answered the question. I want to know what you think about him. What is this God to you? Do you have any feelings towards this God what so ever?

Again, I have already addressed this!! Read it again. I’m not like you. You clearly NEED your god. I do not. I do not worship. I do not pray. I do not even care. I cannot have feelings for something I can never understand. You’ve got to think outside the box man. I don’t view God the way religious people view their gods. Your god is a huge part of your life. That makes NO sense to me. I cannot even understand why you would care.

A very convenient explanation of how god just happens to be absolutely identical to humans. Also, this information comes from a book written by humans. hmm?

He isn't absolutely identical to human beings.

No of course not … cause you say so. Good enough for me.

Isaiah 55:9

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

From the very beginning of the bible, it states that man is made in Gods image. That is the source of the similarity. That we turn something good into something wretched doesn't speak to the attributes of God.

Same ole, same ole

Except that they are not transcendent, as you wish they were - constantly, and throughout the Bible, writers even boast of god's envy and wrath. Warning humans about the dangers of pissing off god. One could even argue that god's pension for killing people who don't think exactly like you do could've ONLY come from the mind of a human being.

Firstly, God is not envious, as He has no rivals and lacks nothing.

Jealousy is tantamount to envy and even if you won’t concede this truth, jealousy is still extremely human – not of god.
Exodus 22:5, Exodus 34:14, Deuteronomy 4:24, Deuteronomy 6:15, Deuteronomy 5:9

Second, God is perfectly just. In order to maintain His righteous standard, God must judge sin. God didn't judge people for not thinking like I do, He judged them because they were wicked. God also tempers His justice with mercy, the foremost example being the work of Jesus Christ.

God is not even close to perfectly just. Condemning the great majority of humans to eternal damnation for simply being born with a human nature and compounding that injustice by only revealing himself for 30 fucking years out of the thousands that mankind has been on this planet. To make it even worse, he claims to have sacrificed himself to himself to save us from a place he made himself. Make it even worse, he knew long before he created all these hell-bound souls that they were already going to hell and made billions of them anyway. What about this is perfect justice? Not a damn thing. It’s clearly a manmade fable.

Even if this were true (obviously we both already know I don't think it is) I fail to see how a deity walking around on earth for only 30 some odd years in an isolated geographic location, preaching doctrines that conflict with each other could possibly enable humans around the world and throughout time to better relate to him.

His doctrines don't conflict with eachother. I'd be happy to clear up your misunderstanding, though.

Doctrines do conflict. Turn the other cheek/I come with a sword. Suffer the little children/Beat them and kill them with bears. There’s hundreds of them, but that’s a whole separate thread so for now I’ll just concede that to you cause I haven’t got the time or the energy. Another time perhaps.

And He enabled humans to better relate to Him by the fact that He became human himself, and suffered as we suffer. The geography and time obviously isn't an issue..He sent his apostles to preach the gospel to the whole world..and here we are 2000 years later and there are over 2 billion Christians in the world.

So for 30 years a miniscule percent of the human race could relate better. Whoopdy-shit?! He didn’t even arrive on this planet till several THOUSAND years after billions had already lived and died! Also, sending disciples all over the world is a huge cop-out. What? Jesus didn’t have the time to prove himself to the rest of us. The disciples and a few thousand Mesopotamians don’t need faith because they have proof, but the rest of us do??? Jesus Christ was pathetic! O and 2 billions Christians, well that’s awesome – “hey thanks jesus, if you came back right now you’d only send 5 billion additional souls into the endless suffering of hell. You’re so just and merciful!”

You see. It’s a man made story.

I have no idea what happens to my soul. It's of none of my concern if I even have one, let alone what happens to it. What evidence? REALLY? Are we still on evidence??? THERE IS NONE!!! Should I quote a really old book that contradicts itself constantly?? Is THAT the evidence you want me to produce?!?!? I just told you that deists don't believe in any other evidence other than the world around us because man-made books full of your precious "evidence" are just that ... man made.

You said my soul was spoken for so that led me to believe you had a specific belief and perhaps evidence to substantiate it. What evidence from the world leads you to believe there is a God?

I already told you – in order to believe in God, I do have to make two assumptions. One, that he exists and Two, that he created. I don’t know if there’s a soul and afterlife and I don’t care. Since I’ve already made the assumption that God created, than clearly if I have a soul, than he created that too and therefore it is out of my hands. Regardless of what happens to it.

Why, if there is a God, are you content to die with no answers from him?

I hate to tell you this pal, but the answers you THINK you have from god are not from God. Just like me, you are going to die without any answers from God. Unlike me you are going to die believing in the words of uneducated, tent-dwelling, goat herders turned self-proclaimed prophets.

Maybe we’ll get the truth in the afterlife. Maybe we won’t. It doesn’t matter. It’s gonna be just fine.

I am not here to prove deism to you or anyone else. There is no evidence of an afterlife ... and the "evidence" that you THINK you have is no more valid than the "evidence" that the Muslims think they have.

We're here to have a debate, I am assuming. I'm not asking you to prove Deism, I am just trying to find out why you believe what you do. Surely you have good reasons for your beliefs?

No, not that good, but in my opinion, they’re far better than your ridiculous notions of talking snakes, burning bushes, floating people, violent gods, zombie deities, and silly book that reads more like The Brothers Grimm than spiritual guidance.

Read the stories man … it’s painfully clear the Bible is fabrication straight from very human minds.



Now on a side note, can we please shorten these things down a LOT? These long posts are exhausting.

If you want to pick a few responses that you just want to write “save for another thread” I won’t bust your balls on it or claim that you’re dodging. These long ass responses are just too tiring and I would at least like to enjoy this a little.