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Creationism
#43
RE: Creationism
(August 11, 2020 at 11:13 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: Can we safely say that Saint Thomas Aquinas was one such individual who argued precisely that or are you going to suggest that the Summa Theologica was arguing for deism?

Thomas Aquinas believed in the God of the Bible. He was clear that the first cause argument could not prove that. 

The first cause argument only proves that there is a first cause.

He did not believe in deism.

Quote:As much as I love the redefinition game it should be noted that Thomas Aquinas argued for both a temporal sequence and logical primacy. As for Aristotle, the phrase "unmoved mover" pretty much shrieks of a temporal sequence.

This is not a "redefinition." The word he was using came first. 

Thomas specifically rejected the Kalam-style first cause as a moment in a temporal sequence.

As Grandizer has pointed out, Aristotle believed the universe was eternal, with no beginning. Thomas said that a beginning could not be proved by logical argument. His first cause doesn't address that.

Unlike so many people, he was very clear on what logic could prove (natural theology) and what it couldn't. He thought that some parts of Christianity can be shown with logic, and some can't.

The first cause part can be argued for with logic. Not the Trinity or Jesus-as-savior part.

Quote:Typing out what the Argument From First Cause "actually" says would be a damned sight easier if there weren't dozens of different ones to pick from. 

That's why I was very clear which one I was talking about. 

Quote:Little matter since they all founder on our complete ignorance regarding plucking a universe from nothing. From that fatal flaw they either degenerate into unsupported argumentation or complete non sequitur.

The argument I described says nothing about "plucking a universe from nothing." It doesn't address any temporal beginning, or anything "before" there was something. 

If you think that there is something in science which proves that something can exist without there being any existence, please let us know. Such a proof would falsify Thomas's argument. 

If you can point me to any reliable links or sources which contradict what I've said here I'll be happy to look at them.
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Messages In This Thread
Creationism - by Silver - August 10, 2020 at 10:10 am
RE: Creationism - by zebo-the-fat - August 10, 2020 at 10:12 am
RE: Creationism - by Rhizomorph13 - August 10, 2020 at 10:18 am
RE: Creationism - by Mister Agenda - August 10, 2020 at 10:25 am
RE: Creationism - by onlinebiker - August 10, 2020 at 10:38 am
RE: Creationism - by Gawdzilla Sama - August 10, 2020 at 12:38 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 10, 2020 at 4:10 pm
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 10, 2020 at 5:06 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 10, 2020 at 5:22 pm
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 10, 2020 at 5:36 pm
RE: Creationism - by Pat Mustard - August 13, 2020 at 1:32 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 10, 2020 at 6:04 pm
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 10, 2020 at 6:21 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 10, 2020 at 6:26 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 10, 2020 at 8:42 pm
RE: Creationism - by downbeatplumb - August 14, 2020 at 8:21 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 14, 2020 at 8:03 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 14, 2020 at 8:46 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 14, 2020 at 8:50 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 14, 2020 at 9:24 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 14, 2020 at 10:29 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 14, 2020 at 10:44 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 15, 2020 at 7:07 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 15, 2020 at 8:11 am
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 15, 2020 at 8:52 am
RE: Creationism - by arewethereyet - August 15, 2020 at 11:08 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 16, 2020 at 1:51 am
RE: Creationism - by Deesse23 - August 15, 2020 at 9:21 am
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 15, 2020 at 10:47 am
RE: Creationism - by downbeatplumb - August 15, 2020 at 7:22 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 15, 2020 at 7:30 am
RE: Creationism - by downbeatplumb - August 16, 2020 at 12:55 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 16, 2020 at 3:11 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 16, 2020 at 7:16 pm
RE: Creationism - by Gwaithmir - August 17, 2020 at 8:55 am
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 17, 2020 at 9:02 am
RE: Creationism - by Pat Mustard - August 18, 2020 at 3:15 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 18, 2020 at 4:41 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 18, 2020 at 5:28 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 18, 2020 at 6:33 am
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 18, 2020 at 7:26 am
RE: Creationism - by Brian37 - August 10, 2020 at 4:16 pm
RE: Creationism - by arewethereyet - August 10, 2020 at 5:08 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 10, 2020 at 5:10 pm
RE: Creationism - by Abaddon_ire - August 10, 2020 at 5:14 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 10, 2020 at 6:00 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 10, 2020 at 7:19 pm
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 11, 2020 at 5:45 am
RE: Creationism - by no one - August 10, 2020 at 8:53 pm
RE: Creationism - by possibletarian - August 10, 2020 at 9:11 pm
RE: Creationism - by Gawdzilla Sama - August 11, 2020 at 7:27 am
RE: Creationism - by Paleophyte - August 10, 2020 at 9:42 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 10, 2020 at 10:29 pm
RE: Creationism - by Abaddon_ire - August 10, 2020 at 10:54 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 10, 2020 at 10:59 pm
RE: Creationism - by Mister Agenda - August 11, 2020 at 11:33 am
RE: Creationism - by Paleophyte - August 11, 2020 at 11:13 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 11, 2020 at 11:48 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 1:22 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 8:58 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 12, 2020 at 11:31 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 5:20 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 6:10 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 8:06 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 8:42 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 8:49 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 8:59 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 9:05 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 10:06 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 10:29 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 10:49 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 12, 2020 at 8:51 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 9:05 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 9:16 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 9:46 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 9:52 pm
RE: Creationism - by Paleophyte - August 13, 2020 at 9:43 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 14, 2020 at 12:50 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 14, 2020 at 1:19 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 14, 2020 at 3:12 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 14, 2020 at 7:40 am
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 10, 2020 at 10:42 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 11, 2020 at 2:23 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 11, 2020 at 2:44 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 11, 2020 at 8:05 am
RE: Creationism - by Peebo-Thuhlu - August 11, 2020 at 2:50 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 11, 2020 at 2:55 am
RE: Creationism - by Abaddon_ire - August 11, 2020 at 2:47 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 11, 2020 at 3:08 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 11, 2020 at 11:22 pm
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 11, 2020 at 11:50 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 1:10 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 11:29 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 11:37 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 6:30 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 9:50 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 12, 2020 at 11:33 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 10:29 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 5:01 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 7:16 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 13, 2020 at 7:33 am
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 13, 2020 at 9:00 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 11:32 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 7:28 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 8:01 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 11:28 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 9:15 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 11:31 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 11:54 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 1:15 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 1:24 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 3:11 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 3:12 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 3:30 pm
RE: Creationism - by HappySkeptic - August 13, 2020 at 4:47 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 13, 2020 at 3:55 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 3:55 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 4:44 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 4:47 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 4:49 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 5:00 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 5:07 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 5:10 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 5:44 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 6:36 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 7:51 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 13, 2020 at 6:45 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 6:49 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 13, 2020 at 6:55 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 7:32 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 7:53 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 14, 2020 at 7:28 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 14, 2020 at 7:56 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 14, 2020 at 8:29 am
RE: Creationism - by Ranjr - August 14, 2020 at 8:44 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 14, 2020 at 11:33 am
RE: Creationism - by Ranjr - August 14, 2020 at 12:19 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 14, 2020 at 12:53 pm
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 14, 2020 at 10:43 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 15, 2020 at 7:40 am
RE: Creationism - by Ranjr - August 15, 2020 at 2:42 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 15, 2020 at 4:25 pm
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 16, 2020 at 12:25 am
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 16, 2020 at 1:55 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 16, 2020 at 3:37 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 16, 2020 at 9:22 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 17, 2020 at 7:44 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 8:36 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 17, 2020 at 8:41 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 11:24 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 17, 2020 at 11:33 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 12:11 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 17, 2020 at 2:09 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 2:48 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 17, 2020 at 3:16 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 3:27 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 17, 2020 at 3:56 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 4:22 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 18, 2020 at 2:16 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 18, 2020 at 6:31 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 18, 2020 at 9:39 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 18, 2020 at 7:18 am
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 18, 2020 at 9:42 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 18, 2020 at 9:56 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 18, 2020 at 11:52 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 20, 2020 at 3:11 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 20, 2020 at 5:57 pm
RE: Creationism - by no one - August 20, 2020 at 9:53 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 20, 2020 at 10:18 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 20, 2020 at 11:01 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 20, 2020 at 11:32 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 21, 2020 at 1:14 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 2:27 am
RE: Creationism - by Deesse23 - August 21, 2020 at 3:11 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 4:08 am
RE: Creationism - by Deesse23 - August 21, 2020 at 4:48 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 5:03 am
RE: Creationism - by Deesse23 - August 21, 2020 at 6:54 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 7:01 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 10:38 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 21, 2020 at 8:16 pm
RE: Creationism - by Deesse23 - August 21, 2020 at 7:21 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 21, 2020 at 7:53 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 21, 2020 at 12:27 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 12:45 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 21, 2020 at 1:12 pm
RE: Creationism - by no one - August 21, 2020 at 9:20 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 21, 2020 at 11:02 pm
RE: Creationism - by Fake Messiah - August 22, 2020 at 5:35 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 22, 2020 at 7:22 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 22, 2020 at 7:51 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 22, 2020 at 8:00 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 22, 2020 at 8:00 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 22, 2020 at 10:47 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 22, 2020 at 10:51 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 22, 2020 at 11:40 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 22, 2020 at 11:49 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 22, 2020 at 11:57 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 23, 2020 at 12:11 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 23, 2020 at 12:55 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 23, 2020 at 1:03 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 23, 2020 at 1:51 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 23, 2020 at 2:04 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 23, 2020 at 2:25 am

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