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Creationism
RE: Creationism
(August 16, 2020 at 7:16 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Kalam's first cause is temporal first cause (as you go backwards in time, eventually you get to that first cause).

Aristotelian/Thomistic is an atemporal type of first cause. Assume time is frozen, if you go "downwards" (for lack of a better term), eventually you get to that first cause.

Kalam: everything that begins to exist is caused.

Aquinas: everything that requires cause is caused

I find this Wiki page to be overall fair because it does reflect current status of discussion on Aquinas' Ways. Unlike with the Kalam, atheists have yet to come up with something strong against these arguments. This doesn't mean there aren't reasons to reject them, of course, but effective counters are nevertheless currently lacking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_(Aquinas)

There's plenty of strong arguments against the Thomist three ways (1, 2 & 5 are the exact same argument), firstly the Teleological argument (the three that are one) depends on the unstated assumption of "firstly, assume god exists. Aquinas doesn't prove god's existence with this argument, he doesn't offer any evidence for the assumptions underpinning his arguments nor show that they are necessary conditions of existence.

Argument three assumes that for anything to exist something must exist for ever. There are two problems with this 1) it's an unevidenced assertion given with no attempt at proof and 2) if true it doesn't lead anywhere near god without a lot more evidence being provided to come to that conclusion. Given our current knowledge we have a possible candidate for an "eternally existant" thing, which is energy, not god.

Argument four is simply Aquinas assuming there is a perfect everything and asserting god embodies all those perfections. No proof offered to show that there is a perfect justice or love oe whatever, just Aquinas proclaiming it to be true because he says so. And again he makes no effort to show that if his premise is true that it must lead to god, he simply asserts it.

Even in his own time his fellow theologians could see tbat Thomas Aquinas was arguing from faulty assumptions and often making "because I say so!" declamations. They knew his three ways were not proof of god, nor that they provided evidence for it.
Urbs Antiqua Fuit Studiisque Asperrima Belli

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Creationism - by Silver - August 10, 2020 at 10:10 am
RE: Creationism - by zebo-the-fat - August 10, 2020 at 10:12 am
RE: Creationism - by Rhizomorph13 - August 10, 2020 at 10:18 am
RE: Creationism - by Mister Agenda - August 10, 2020 at 10:25 am
RE: Creationism - by onlinebiker - August 10, 2020 at 10:38 am
RE: Creationism - by Gawdzilla Sama - August 10, 2020 at 12:38 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 10, 2020 at 4:10 pm
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 10, 2020 at 5:06 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 10, 2020 at 5:22 pm
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 10, 2020 at 5:36 pm
RE: Creationism - by Pat Mustard - August 13, 2020 at 1:32 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 10, 2020 at 6:04 pm
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 10, 2020 at 6:21 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 10, 2020 at 6:26 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 10, 2020 at 8:42 pm
RE: Creationism - by downbeatplumb - August 14, 2020 at 8:21 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 14, 2020 at 8:03 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 14, 2020 at 8:46 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 14, 2020 at 8:50 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 14, 2020 at 9:24 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 14, 2020 at 10:29 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 14, 2020 at 10:44 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 15, 2020 at 7:07 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 15, 2020 at 8:11 am
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 15, 2020 at 8:52 am
RE: Creationism - by arewethereyet - August 15, 2020 at 11:08 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 16, 2020 at 1:51 am
RE: Creationism - by Deesse23 - August 15, 2020 at 9:21 am
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 15, 2020 at 10:47 am
RE: Creationism - by downbeatplumb - August 15, 2020 at 7:22 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 15, 2020 at 7:30 am
RE: Creationism - by downbeatplumb - August 16, 2020 at 12:55 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 16, 2020 at 3:11 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 16, 2020 at 7:16 pm
RE: Creationism - by Gwaithmir - August 17, 2020 at 8:55 am
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 17, 2020 at 9:02 am
RE: Creationism - by Pat Mustard - August 18, 2020 at 3:15 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 18, 2020 at 4:41 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 18, 2020 at 5:28 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 18, 2020 at 6:33 am
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 18, 2020 at 7:26 am
RE: Creationism - by Brian37 - August 10, 2020 at 4:16 pm
RE: Creationism - by arewethereyet - August 10, 2020 at 5:08 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 10, 2020 at 5:10 pm
RE: Creationism - by Abaddon_ire - August 10, 2020 at 5:14 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 10, 2020 at 6:00 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 10, 2020 at 7:19 pm
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 11, 2020 at 5:45 am
RE: Creationism - by no one - August 10, 2020 at 8:53 pm
RE: Creationism - by possibletarian - August 10, 2020 at 9:11 pm
RE: Creationism - by Gawdzilla Sama - August 11, 2020 at 7:27 am
RE: Creationism - by Paleophyte - August 10, 2020 at 9:42 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 10, 2020 at 10:29 pm
RE: Creationism - by Abaddon_ire - August 10, 2020 at 10:54 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 10, 2020 at 10:59 pm
RE: Creationism - by Mister Agenda - August 11, 2020 at 11:33 am
RE: Creationism - by Paleophyte - August 11, 2020 at 11:13 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 11, 2020 at 11:48 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 1:22 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 8:58 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 12, 2020 at 11:31 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 5:20 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 6:10 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 8:06 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 8:42 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 8:49 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 8:59 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 9:05 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 10:06 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 10:29 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 10:49 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 12, 2020 at 8:51 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 9:05 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 9:16 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 12, 2020 at 9:46 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 12, 2020 at 9:52 pm
RE: Creationism - by Paleophyte - August 13, 2020 at 9:43 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 14, 2020 at 12:50 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 14, 2020 at 1:19 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 14, 2020 at 3:12 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 14, 2020 at 7:40 am
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 10, 2020 at 10:42 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 11, 2020 at 2:23 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 11, 2020 at 2:44 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 11, 2020 at 8:05 am
RE: Creationism - by Peebo-Thuhlu - August 11, 2020 at 2:50 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 11, 2020 at 2:55 am
RE: Creationism - by Abaddon_ire - August 11, 2020 at 2:47 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 11, 2020 at 3:08 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 11, 2020 at 11:22 pm
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 11, 2020 at 11:50 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 1:10 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 11:29 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 11:37 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 6:30 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 9:50 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 12, 2020 at 11:33 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2020 at 10:29 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 5:01 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 7:16 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 13, 2020 at 7:33 am
RE: Creationism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 13, 2020 at 9:00 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 11:32 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 7:28 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 8:01 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 11:28 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 9:15 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 11:31 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 11:54 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 1:15 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 1:24 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 3:11 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 3:12 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 3:30 pm
RE: Creationism - by HappySkeptic - August 13, 2020 at 4:47 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Architect Of Fate - August 13, 2020 at 3:55 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 3:55 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 4:44 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 4:47 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 4:49 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 5:00 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 5:07 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 5:10 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 5:44 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 6:36 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 13, 2020 at 7:51 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 13, 2020 at 6:45 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 6:49 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 13, 2020 at 6:55 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 7:32 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 13, 2020 at 7:53 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 14, 2020 at 7:28 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 14, 2020 at 7:56 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 14, 2020 at 8:29 am
RE: Creationism - by Ranjr - August 14, 2020 at 8:44 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 14, 2020 at 11:33 am
RE: Creationism - by Ranjr - August 14, 2020 at 12:19 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 14, 2020 at 12:53 pm
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 14, 2020 at 10:43 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 15, 2020 at 7:40 am
RE: Creationism - by Ranjr - August 15, 2020 at 2:42 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 15, 2020 at 4:25 pm
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 16, 2020 at 12:25 am
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 16, 2020 at 1:55 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 16, 2020 at 3:37 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 16, 2020 at 9:22 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 17, 2020 at 7:44 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 8:36 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 17, 2020 at 8:41 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 11:24 am
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 17, 2020 at 11:33 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 12:11 pm
RE: Creationism - by brewer - August 17, 2020 at 2:09 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 2:48 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 17, 2020 at 3:16 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 3:27 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 17, 2020 at 3:56 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 17, 2020 at 4:22 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 18, 2020 at 2:16 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 18, 2020 at 6:31 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 18, 2020 at 9:39 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 18, 2020 at 7:18 am
RE: Creationism - by Silver - August 18, 2020 at 9:42 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 18, 2020 at 9:56 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 18, 2020 at 11:52 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 20, 2020 at 3:11 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 20, 2020 at 5:57 pm
RE: Creationism - by no one - August 20, 2020 at 9:53 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 20, 2020 at 10:18 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 20, 2020 at 11:01 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 20, 2020 at 11:32 pm
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 21, 2020 at 1:14 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 2:27 am
RE: Creationism - by Deesse23 - August 21, 2020 at 3:11 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 4:08 am
RE: Creationism - by Deesse23 - August 21, 2020 at 4:48 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 5:03 am
RE: Creationism - by Deesse23 - August 21, 2020 at 6:54 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 7:01 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 10:38 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 21, 2020 at 8:16 pm
RE: Creationism - by Deesse23 - August 21, 2020 at 7:21 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 21, 2020 at 7:53 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 21, 2020 at 12:27 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 21, 2020 at 12:45 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 21, 2020 at 1:12 pm
RE: Creationism - by no one - August 21, 2020 at 9:20 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 21, 2020 at 11:02 pm
RE: Creationism - by Fake Messiah - August 22, 2020 at 5:35 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 22, 2020 at 7:22 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 22, 2020 at 7:51 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 22, 2020 at 8:00 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 22, 2020 at 8:00 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 22, 2020 at 10:47 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 22, 2020 at 10:51 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 22, 2020 at 11:40 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 22, 2020 at 11:49 pm
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 22, 2020 at 11:57 pm
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 23, 2020 at 12:11 am
RE: Creationism - by Belacqua - August 23, 2020 at 12:55 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 23, 2020 at 1:03 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 23, 2020 at 1:51 am
RE: Creationism - by The Grand Nudger - August 23, 2020 at 2:04 am
RE: Creationism - by Grandizer - August 23, 2020 at 2:25 am

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