Hey vulc, invitation accepted 
As you know, so far I've read Meno, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, and am partway through book 4 of Republic... but I need a bit of a refresher because I've been in Aristotle mode for the last few days, so this thread will at least give me an excuse to switch between them
As you've said elsewhere, there's a lot to disagree with on the face of it in Republic, with their conception of the ideal State, but to be honest I didn't really think I was in a position to make those sorts of judgments until I'd read the whole thing... in other words I was waiting for the punchline. But yeah, if we're just taking it at face value, where I'm up to so far I agree it's made me shake my head a few times... for instance, the level of censorship is extraordinary, right down to the level of not producing certain instruments (or parts of instruments) because of the sort of music they might be able to make.
As I said though, I'm a bit out of the loop at the moment, so I've forgotten the finer points, but as I'm understanding it so far, all of this in aid of basically teaching... or in this case indoctrinating/forcing... moderation in all things... basically Virtue, and with this State aiming to personify Justice.
So the sorts of questions it seems to be asking are to what extent is Virtue teachable... as clearly they do not believe it to be innate, where I take Virtue really to mean, the wisdom/experience to tread that 'Golden Mean/Golden Middle Way' between deficiency and excess... but where arguably if the only reason you've been able to tread that line is through censorship and prohibitions, have you really learnt anything? Ie if the only reason you don't get pissed every night is because the pubs are closed, is that really Temperance? Granted I know in one sense, all this in The Republic is aimed at teaching the young... ie the young are generally excessive by nature, as well as impressionable, so censorship/prohibition makes more sense for them, just as it does in the modern world, but there's another example which doesn't appear to be about teaching the young specifically, and that is to do with a profession; ie how will the potter's art, be affected by either poverty or wealth, the answer to both being negatively, so in attempting to prevent either extreme, that would appear to me censorship/prohibition of the general populace, not just the young. As I said, I'm only up to book 4 so far, and it's not fresh in my mind either right now, so I'm sure there's plenty more nuance to get out of it, including as I said, the punchline... or big picture, but since you put me on the spot , those are my thoughts at the moment.
As you know, so far I've read Meno, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, and am partway through book 4 of Republic... but I need a bit of a refresher because I've been in Aristotle mode for the last few days, so this thread will at least give me an excuse to switch between them
As you've said elsewhere, there's a lot to disagree with on the face of it in Republic, with their conception of the ideal State, but to be honest I didn't really think I was in a position to make those sorts of judgments until I'd read the whole thing... in other words I was waiting for the punchline. But yeah, if we're just taking it at face value, where I'm up to so far I agree it's made me shake my head a few times... for instance, the level of censorship is extraordinary, right down to the level of not producing certain instruments (or parts of instruments) because of the sort of music they might be able to make.
As I said though, I'm a bit out of the loop at the moment, so I've forgotten the finer points, but as I'm understanding it so far, all of this in aid of basically teaching... or in this case indoctrinating/forcing... moderation in all things... basically Virtue, and with this State aiming to personify Justice.
So the sorts of questions it seems to be asking are to what extent is Virtue teachable... as clearly they do not believe it to be innate, where I take Virtue really to mean, the wisdom/experience to tread that 'Golden Mean/Golden Middle Way' between deficiency and excess... but where arguably if the only reason you've been able to tread that line is through censorship and prohibitions, have you really learnt anything? Ie if the only reason you don't get pissed every night is because the pubs are closed
, is that really Temperance? Granted I know in one sense, all this in The Republic is aimed at teaching the young... ie the young are generally excessive by nature, as well as impressionable, so censorship/prohibition makes more sense for them, just as it does in the modern world, but there's another example which doesn't appear to be about teaching the young specifically, and that is to do with a profession; ie how will the potter's art, be affected by either poverty or wealth, the answer to both being negatively, so in attempting to prevent either extreme, that would appear to me censorship/prohibition of the general populace, not just the young. As I said, I'm only up to book 4 so far, and it's not fresh in my mind either right now, so I'm sure there's plenty more nuance to get out of it, including as I said, the punchline... or big picture, but since you put me on the spot , those are my thoughts at the moment.
