Does the Quran support Theocracy?

[Leonardo17]

Yet there is a deeper meaning in that too. That deeper meaning does not just come to you through some book or religious indoctrination. It’s a reality that can be understood intellectually (on some level). But it can only be known by direct experience. That direct experience is what I call genuine spirituality. That’s my way of understanding it.

 

If you mean direct experience, such as vision, various other sensory data and emotions, yes I suppose you can call that as spiritual. There is a sense of an “I am a conscious being”.

This later is better. Because our prophet did not display some “miracles” like the prophets before him. My conviction is that the Universe simply realigns itself and most of the time it does so through real people (like you and me) and in this way his will is done no matter what.

Because of that the Etymology of Islam is not to put bombs everywhere and murder whoever you can murder but to surrender meaning that His will is going to be done no matter what.

 

There is no way to tell who is a prophet and who is not.
Obviously some people though that there was something special about Mohamed.
I’m guessing he impressed his friends by saying some sentences, the kind of stuff that you find in the Bible.

It is possible that the universe aligns itself and the people place bombs since that is the will of the jewish god. How would you know that it is not the will of the jewish god?

So, there needs to be some kind of test established that a person takes to determine if he is a prophet and we can print a license for him.
The better solution is for the alien to just talk to everyone.

 5) I think he is talking about:
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.


Again: the thinking of the world is 180 degree the opposite of God.

 

The above comes into conflict with

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KING JAMES VERSION
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

^^^^^A dead person goes to the grave.
Jews believe that they don’t have a spirit. That the soul just means a machine that functions.

Of course, religions evolve over time. New leaders come along and have new ideas.

“40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward.”

 

I am not going to welcome random individuals to my house.
The idea of going to some random person’s house and just knocking and they let you in and you eat their food and take a bath and use their stuff sounds like idealism but who wants to open their door to some random person and let them use their stuff?
There are hotels and motels for that. If someone is homeless, there are government programs for that and we pay taxes so that those programs work.

There are other idealistic comments in the Bible, such as turn the other cheek.
That is pretty bad advice.
You would accept being violated, raped, your things stolen, your land conquered?
Would your god accept that? Can I rape him and beat him up and he would turn the other cheek?

At one point Jesus says, don’t worry about what you put in the body. Worry about your soul.
Unfortunately, reality demands that we eat properly, we exercise. The body is a machine and you have to take care of it.

I have seen what that leads to. I had a family member that would not bathe, would not look for a job.

I understand their POV. These guys have this notion that the “material world” is not good and they want to go to some other utopean universe.

7) As far as I know the Jews murdered Jesus because they decided that he was not the Messiah they have been waiting for. Just like today with their attitude of extreme Zionism, back in the days they expected a different more earthly “Messiah”. So when Jesus came with his teachings of love, and compassion, and forgiveness, and “Kingdom of heaven” they just hated him

 

That would be part of the reason. If you are claiming to be the savior of Israel, then you better be good at it.
Like I said, Israel was probably conquered by Rome for a long while. They probably executed the jewish soldiers and along with it, probably the entire royal class.
There was a need for a savior from their god. Their was an expectation that a savior would be sent one day.
Probably that happened a bunch of times. The savior came, motivated the people, and the roman army put them in their place.
After a while, the priestly class are going to get accused of instigated disorder.
The priestly class in order to survive, would have to cooperate with the Romans, point out who is a trouble maker.
The new messiah gets killed and peace gets kept but how would the followers of the messiah feel about the priestly class?

So many religion have this concept of “The end of days / the end of time”

 

Think about it. Isn’t ancient man going to ask some of these basic questions?
How did it start?
Was there an Earth forever or did the gods make it?
What was the sequence of events? (See Genesis for the jewish version for this)
Why do I exist? What is the meaning of like?
Why does stuff exist?
What happened to my son when he died? Did he turn into worm food?
What happened to my dead parents?

Is it going to be like this forever? For the tanakh, the original ending might be this:

Malachi 4:5 KING JAMES VERSION
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: {4:6} And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

^^^^^Apparently, the author didn’t have much to say about the end of days. I know that other jewish priests have written a lot of text but I have not read them.
Anyway, for the Bible, someone decided to stick Revelation in the end of the Bible.
Apparently, the author lacks talent or something. The europeans did not find it enjoyable and most did not want Revelations to be included in the Bible.
Or maybe Revelation makes Jesus look like a psycho and it doesn’t fit with the peace & love Jesus.

Saying that the earth is 6000 years old is the same thing as political Islamists


 

I disagree. That is not about politics. It is about deciding that the holy text is perfect, crystal clear, a text that tells us real history and science. It also has to do with tradition.

The Bible states that some prophets live 500 years the other 400 year, so they add all the prophet and they obtain a number like 586 (or something like that). That’s not how I read the scriptures. Scriptures are there to explain subtle spiritual realities. Determining the age of the planet is the area of Geology.


 

The Bible describes a chain of events starting from Genesis 1:1, so it is the reasonable thing to do, to add the ages of the people.
After all, the info is suppose to come from an all knowing scientist (the jewish god) so, maybe he has some info in there about the age of the universe, and more.
What is wrong in believing that you can populate the Earth with 1 female and 1 male? The stuff written in Genesis would sound reasonable to a primitive human.
Some people ask, why does god take 6 days to create stuff? So what. He can do whatever he wants.
In other words, there isn’t anything in there that contradicts the science of the 1200 BCE.

Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity in his deathbed. And before dying that was his legacy “One God / One Emperor”. So this was the origin of the unification of Church and state (in the Western world)

 

You mean this Constantine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great

He became a christian at age 40, year 312.
He died at age 65.
It is said that his mother converted him to christianity.
At one point, Constantine went to war and he saw an omen. He saw a cross in the sky, a voice that said in my name, conquer. They one that war and so, the soldiers took it as a sign that christianity is the correct religion and they converted to christianity.

Hindus believe in one God “Brahma” (He wo is not). All the other Gods are actually “aspects” of that Singular Reality. The Religion of Akhenaten (1350 BC) was also that. The Sun disc was the origin of all the other Gods. In other “pagan” cosmologies. There is always this “All-father” (the God who created all the other Gods).
 
So I see that as “The Ultimate reality”. I think people simply switched to monotheism because of this. Polytheism made everything more complicated (that’s my theory).

 

Sounds like you are saying that the god has a brain. It seems to be popular to believe that the god has a personality (brain).

I tried to explain these stuff to Grandnudger before you: People (meaning the Ego) likes to travesties everything it perceives as a threat. True religion is the ultimate threat to the existence of the Ego. So the Older a religious teaching, the more artificial stuff will be added and the more real stuff will be extracted from it. Many spiritual paths require us to meditate or pay at least 2 times a day (in the morning and in the evening). Praying 5 times a day is another option. It help us to refocus our Ego-based perception back toward our True-Self (this in turn does help us in our day to day issues) Again: Deeper issue.
 

Sounds like you are saying the rule about pork is just nonsense and should not have been there since day 1.
The rule about praying 5 times a day is not a requirement anymore.

1) Yeah, something like that
 
But I am not talking of visions / apparitions / telepathic connection to something like “Cornelius, The Admiral of the Galactic Fleet”.
 
As we evolve in that direction, the energy flows are changing, the structure of the brain is changing. Transandental meditation is something like that. Advanced meditators are able to “experience” their True Essence like that. And they are even able to stay there.
 
But again: This doesn’t come for free and it rarely happens rapidly. Most of us are simply “on the path” of getting there.
 
2) You know when the prophet died, all clan leaders of Arabia started to claim that they were “the next prophet”. This happened just when he died. That’s the human Ego.
 
On the placing of bombs: Again: These are deeper subjects. If I knew I would be an enlightened master or something like that. But Religion does not deny the fact that we have a free will. That’s another reason why it is very personal and individual.
 
I cannot stop people placing Bombs (I am no FSB / I am no CIA). I can turn inward, and this will change the world actually. Think of it like being a positive person who is smiling to everyone and is being kind to everyone, this type of approach on a massive level can (ultimately) take down people who only see power and money in their lives and will do anything to get these things. I don’t know if you are following?
 
3) You are making me read the Bible. I think this is beautyfull:
 
“

The living know that they will die,
    but the dead know nothing;
they have no more reward,
    for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 What they loved, hated,
    and envied has already perished;
and there is no reward for them from long ago
    in everything that is done under the sun.
 
7 Go and eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a pleasant heart; for God is already pleased with your deeds. 8 At all times may your clothing be white, and let not oil ever lack on your head. 9 Enjoy life with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun; because that is your reward in life and in your toil because you have labored under the sun. 10 Whatever your hands find to do, do with your strength; for there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, the place where you are going.”

 
- It says “This world is not eternal (it’s basically some sort of hallucination) so (10th verse) Do stuff when you are in this world and do it sincerely. (And that echoes the Quran too)
 
Jews and the Afterlife: I cannot tell them they are wrong. I am not like those New-Age people who would say that we just leave our body with and astral body and then we reincarnate and then it’s all La La Land. So they might be right in some way. I am reading the works of advanced Yogis while trying to understand what’s going on.
 
But true religion does not even “care” about that. It wants us to return to our true identity (as a son of God) and to live with that awareness (instead of the limited Ego-based awareness)
 
4) I think he is talking about the “Christ Consciousness”. He is meaning that if we open ourselves to the Christ / to the Holy Spirit, Than we would be allowing God (our true self) into our hearth. (I might be completely wrong about these things, I don’t know that much about Christianity)
 
- No. Jihad in Islam means just that. + You are not supposed to obey to Tyrants either. The way I Understand it, the true believer has the duty of opposing tyranny in the name of Truth.
 
Old School religion always says stuff like “Shut up. Sit down. Let them do whatever they want to you” So you already know that this isn’t going to work.
True spirituality has made me more decisive in protecting stuff I see as important. The only difference is that I am doing that more consciously now.
 
Now I don’t just hate rich capitalists who destroy the environment etc. I do sort of forgive these people on some level (I see them as Ego-Surrendered persons who actually need to be loved) and I act within my community to help things evolve toward something that is more pluralistic. And I am more decisive and assertive about these things now.
 

“At one point Jesus says, don’t worry about what you put in the body. Worry about your soul.
Unfortunately, reality demands that we eat properly, we exercise. The body is a machine and you have to take care of it.
 
I have seen what that leads to. I had a family member that would not bathe, would not look for a job.
 
I understand their POV. These guys have this notion that the “material world” is not good and they want to go to some other utopean universe.”

 
- We are not supposed to become couch potatoes for God. That’s not how it works. You seem to be a young man so you have to do your thing and find your way (whatever that is) And the Quran does mention “Those who do good jobs for the benefit of all” and does despise people who get things to brutal strength and power (Like major oil and coal companies and/or the NRA in the US for instance)
 
5) I see it more like the Ego being disturbed by the Spiritual. See the Ego is actually everything that is described as “The Serpent” in Abrahamic Books. It is there to destroy you, not just to inconvenience you. It will take you down and it will take other people down too if you let it. Just think of all the thing the Pharaoh did to himself where he could have said “If you don’t like being here just F.O. Damned!”. In the movie I like the final part when he just rushes toward the Jews not seeing or caring about anything else. That’s how all of us are when our Ego-based Narcissism has been wounded in some way.
 
So What true spirituality says there is: “Just wait… One moment. Take a deep breathe. Don’t hit that “Send E-Mail Button” or “Don’t reach out for that pack of Cigs. Just go and drink a cup of water. Call your friend. Just don’t hit that “send E-mail  Button””  
 
True spirituality is when you are able to do these thing more easily than before. It’s about mental discipline too. That’s what we do in the Ramadan. It’s not about gathering in the Temple mound and defying the Jews. We like to go to more quiet places where we can be introspective. And we don’t sleep until noon either. We wake up early (as before) then we teach our body to remain hungry for a while. Just to know how strong we are and how we can skip thing if we want to.
 
On Israel: Sadhguru says that there are thing we will understand at the moment of death. Everyone will get it at that moment. No exception: You came in with nothing / you are leaving with nothing (What do you lose? – Nothing).
 
So that’s why the Clergy was wrong. That’s where The 6th century Muawiyah I and his Son Yazid who murdered the true Khalif (Ali) in 680.  They took their “Israel” or their worldly power and domination by murdering spiritual values (the son in law of the prophet who was our true spiritual leader at the time).
 
So Religion doesn’t like that. It’s about our spiritual salvation. Not about any gain or improvement in the material world.
 
And that reflects a small personality. That is a personality that is Ego-based / fear based that is ignorant of the spiritual potential there.
 
6) One has to be very careful on these issues. There was I time when I was reading the book of someone called J.Z. Knight about the end of days and believed it.
 
My vision of the end of time is more simple than that:
 
- The Messiah being within us. We need to allow it to surface and bring us back to our true selves and save us from our limitless narcissism and Egotism. Than there will be no more 16,000 children dying of hunger every day, there will be no more Arabo-İsraeli conflict.
 
Think of this: How many people believe that world peace is possible today?
 
- Very few. The annual US budget on defense in 800 Billion Dollar / year and rising.
 
/So you don’t have a solution to anything I am talking about. I do. Humanity will take this step (one way or the other). And that will be “The end of time”. Because as Eistein puts it “Time is an illusion” we will be living “here and now”. Like in John Lennon’s song “İmagine”.
 
You may not agree with me. But that’s the sort of stuff I am into on an individual level.
 
7) Of course it is about politics. Why did Galileo and Copernicus have to hide their findings? Why was it so Had for Columbus to start his journey? Why did they Murder Giordano Bruno?” and “Why was it forbidden until the renaissance for ordinary people to even read the bible?”
 
Do not be misled. Religious zeal and bigotry and the political usade of religion (think of Narendra Mody in India) is a very dangerous thing because it’s like fascism. It creates an army of robots. It creates a completely sick society that is cut-out from reality itself. It’s pure evil.
 
8) That’s something I read from Swami Sri-Yukteswar. I have nothing got support it but I sort of believe it.
 
9) I may be mistaking. In a novel that I read he had remained a pagan until his death bed. After him there was this guy called Julianus who even tried to restore paganism to the empire. Anyway: Constantine created political Christianity. Until him it was just another religion that was being tolerated within the empire.
 
10) Yogis describe “our brain” as a mere cutting tool. It’s a cutting tool that splits everything in two. If left unchecked, it’s like a razor sharp knife in the hand of a 4 year old. So Yoga it’s like the Zen-mind. Instead of trying to solve everything with a tool we believe is all powerful, we just step aside and we “let go and let God”.
 
Because that Intelligence is the intelligence that makes planets revolve around the sun or make embryos evolve into babies.
 
Again: I am a student of these ideas. DO not think that I understand these principles fully on a personal level either. 


11) There are many separate ways that are leading to the same heaven. I know people who give money to the poor because they are unable to do fasting in the Ramadan.

 
God will not take the Mjölnir and strike upon your head with it because you are too dumb too follows his orders up to the slightest detail.  (not in my way of seeing things)