RE: Elon Musk
November 28, 2024 at 3:56 am
(This post was last modified: November 28, 2024 at 4:24 am by Deesse23.)
(November 28, 2024 at 1:18 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:Its....complicated. I agree partially, in terms of "yes, but there is more to it".(November 27, 2024 at 6:33 pm)Pat Mustard Wrote: The AfD came about because the Soviets wove the Nazis into the East German state, largely through membership of the Stasi. That left the far-right ample space to fester in the eastern parts of Germany, as long as they paid as much lip service to communism as the Politburo did.
There is a reason why the AfD are an exclusively East German phenomenon. There was no real reckoning over the Nazi period in the East.
@Deesse23, I'd like to hear your opinion here.
Yes, its a well known fact that the GDR never dealth with the nazi past, they just ignored it, just like they ignored (denied) the existence of petty crime, unemployment and other "vices of the capitalist west". They also had a fair share of "foreigners" (just like we had in the west). We had Turks, Portugese and Italians. The GDR had Vietnamese and other fireigners from communist allied states. I think its safe to say that there were also resentments towards them, because.....humans are humans, even in a communist state.
As for the detailed history of the AfD: It didnt just "Pop up" its a kind of evolution, one we have seen in other places of the world (US and France are coming to my mind).
The AfD was founded by a professor of economy (Bernd Lucke). A rather dull guy, and it had not much success. Politically it was burgeoise, middle class and not extreme at all. But it featured a hallmark of those modern populist movements: It pandered to the grievances (perceived or real, doesnt matter) of people who were dissatisfied and disappointed of the "establishment" political class. I think thats the first core feature, just like with Trumpism, his followers counting on him not being a member of the established political class, and attributing to him some kind of expertise in economy that was unproven (yet). The Afd Was "just another" burgeoise, middle class, conservative movement i would say.
Phase two:
Frauke Petry takes over. She is from Eastern Germany, also has a higher education and won an internal struggle against Lucke (i dont know the details what was going on behind closed curtains and i dont know anyone who does). Her positions were decidedly (more) xenophobic, anti EU, etc.. With her, the AfD quite abruptly became right wing. Its notable that she, like many other leaders of modern populist movements, also had some shady business going on, in her case leading to getting sentenced for " negligant perjury".
I think what characterizes her policies is again common amongst modern populists: wrap up xenophobia, nationalism, anti.semitism, etc. in "better to sell" policies about how you have the silver bullet about saving the econom, "telling it how it is", and other unsuspicious policies. This way you "catch" many people who wouldnt support the former policies. I guess many of those are quite aware of them, but are willing to acept the tradeoff, for having the desired "breakthrough" that the political establishment is seemingly not able to provide. Additionally, of course, it attracts those who are already nationalists, anti semites, etc. All those who had to work underground or in too small groups to make a difference. In combination however this movement grows now, and those who werent so comfortable with racism....get used to it, like you get used to a tolerance for opioids for relief of pain, or keep plainly ignoring it.
What happened here i would compare to something that happened to the "good old" NSDAP too. It was founded with quite different intentions, but got quickly and completely taken over by some populist panderers to the lizard brain, with "economy" and "border security" as a nice gift wrapping.
Phase three:
Petrys extremist policies attracted....extremists (duh) like Gauland or ultimately Höcke. In a palace revolution, Petry was removed and completely (duh) surprised about it. The revolution starts to eat up its children. Petry = Röhm or Robespierre? Maybe these comparisons are apt, your mileage may vary. Is it conceivable that the Tea Party movement was taken over by Trumpism in a similar manner? I think i see a common thread here.
With Gauland and Höcke throwing Petry out, the Afd was fully blown post fascist, or whatever you want to call it. Surprisingly, during all this internal turmoil, its voter base was steadily growing, since the political establishment didnt know how to counter the populist propaganda. I think this is exatly how Harris lost to Trump recently. You can twin a game rigged by those. They lie and they dont care about lieing, telling the truth wont help you at all. Thats also why i think "free speech" is powerless and the "competition of ideas" as a part of free speech has no edge at all. The leading figures dont give a shit about truth, and their voter base partially are buing all this bullcrap, or also dont care, as long as they are being told what they want to hear (I will throw out all those foreigners stealing your jobs and raping your women, and i will fix the economy by setting the clocks back 100y, trust me altough there is no evidence i am not completely talking out of my ass).
Its all entirely based on frustration of the voter base, combined with extremist ideas being made soicially acceptable.
Ok, Gauland et al have taken over, AfD has extremist tendencies. What is next? Again, something similar to what happened to the republican party (and to LePens party in France): The minortiy (even more!) extremist wing fails to get expulsed, and blackmalis the "mainstream" majortiy of AfD, and the majority let the extremist minorty take over (much like MTG, Boebert et al). It was tried to get rid of Höcke, who is clearly a fascist, but it didnt work. The party realized that if they split up both parts will be too small to hav power (funnily enough, thats exactly what happened to the extreme left wing party "Die Linke": IT split up in two parts, one og which certainly won tend up in the Bundestag, and the other, BSW, barely).
The AfD was originally founded as a mostly centrist, conservative parts, but got pushed to the extrme end by repreated sudden events, presenting a more continuous movement looking at a larger time scale.
With regard to your claim that if you dont stifle the nazi free speech, they will fester in the underground. I am not sure......looking at Höcke et al, they dont go underground, they show no intention at all, even after repeatedly having been sentenced for violating the limitations of speech were have here. After all they arent sentenced to major prison stints or so. They get fined or some parole.What Höcke is doing is:
#1 Trying his luck again, and again, by pushing his luck with other intentionally borderline claims. Its basically an open challenge to the "system"
#2 Playing the victim card: Trying to wear the sentences they got as "badges of honor", "i got these scars for YOU, dear voter" (isnt that what that disgusting guy....what was his name...Alex Jones, yes! was doing? Isnt that what TRump is doing all the time too?)
I think those movements are more dangerous than many of us think, and i think that we dont have the tools (yet) to counter them. The leading political class(es) certainly are still puzzled and fumbling around. I fear that sooner or later they will arrange themselves with the fascists, and let the participate in gevernmental power. We will see in late February in Germany. The US is again one step ahead of us: The fascists are in power. I hope and am counting on thier particular incompetence, which they seem to show already, looking at the panoptikum of candidates, fortunately.
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