(April 8, 2025 at 11:06 am)Sheldon Wrote:(April 8, 2025 at 10:43 am)Drew_2013 Wrote: I don't deny there is evidence to support belief in naturalism.
Quote:Most if not all atheists deny there is a shred of evidence, data or reason to think it was intentionally caused. They are to cowardly to admit otherwise.
Oh dear, firstly and for the second time it is too much, not to (sic) much, and the idea you know what most, let alone all, atheists think is too stupid a claim to do anything with but point and laugh.
If you think you have evidence the universe was created by a deity using supernatural powers, then present it, but you will need to a lot better than misrepresenting scientific terms like fine tuning, as this scientific term explains only natural physical attributes of the universe. It does not evidence anything supernatural, this is the core error you started with, and haven't the integrity to address.
The term fine tuning is a metaphor, like the term the big bang, nether are meant literally, and neither idea, nor any established scientific idea, has ever evidenced anything supernatural. The scientific term differs from the theological argument using that term, the apologetics argument from fine tuning, points at the natural physical characteristics of the universe, and then uses an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, namely "we can't explain X, therefore god did it."
Nothing Drew has presented, goes beyond the use of that fallacy.
Quote:This is hardly saying much, since the existence of the natural physical universe, and natural causation, is an objective fact, one might as well deny the rotundity of the earth.
Bullshit. What natural causation caused the universe to exist? It wasn't like anything like the natural forces that came into existence since they didn't exist yet.
Quote:I can only speak for myself, and am happy to state categorically that I have never encountered, nor am I aware of any objective evidence that the universe was created, nor any sound argument for the same. For the record, you have failed utterly to do so.
The prevailing scientific theory, the Big Bang Theory, suggests that the universe began from a singularity (a hot, dense point) about 13.8 billion years ago, marking the beginning of space, time, and matter.
Whether intentionally or the result of mindless natural forces the universe (spacetime matter) began to exist. That's creation. I didn't think I needed to tell you this.
Quote: The scientific term differs from the theological argument using that term, the apologetics argument from fine tuning, points at the natural physical characteristics of the universe, and then uses an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, namelyMan, are you grasping at straws. Big bang isn't a metaphor its a catchy name the person who first proposed BB theory and it stuck. It wasn't initially big and it didn't cause a bang since there was no medium for sound to travel through.
Quote:"we can't explain X, therefore god did it."
The contention it was intentionally caused does explain why we live in a universe that caused life to exist. The counter explanation is multiverse did it. However as I pointed out fine-tuning is indicative of things caused by intent. Fine-tuning of this universe doesn't cause other universes to exist.
Quote:The term fine tuning is a metaphor, like the term the big bang, nether are meant literally, and neither idea, nor any established scientific idea, has ever evidenced anything supernatural.
Are you ignorant or lying? Fine-tuning isn't a metaphor its a scientific term that describes things that requires several components in specific values and ranges to cause something to happen. A laptop is fine-tuned to cause computing to occur. You're still in denial as to why so many scientists subscribe to multiverse theory. They believe as you do it wasn't intentionally caused so multiverse did it.
Suppose tomorrow some startling new evidence comes forth and the majority of scientists conclude the universe was intentionally caused to exist. They don't say who or what, just that it was intentionally caused. Would that be a horrible day for you? Would you walk around in a haze for days on end? Can you deny its possible our existence was intentionally caused knowing in a few dozen years we maybe able to cause virtual people to exist in a virtual universe. No doubt some of the virtual people will believe there existence was intentionally caused. Would they be wrong?
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