(April 10, 2025 at 3:00 am)Sheldon Wrote:Quote:No it really isn't, you have claimed a deity created the universe, can you offer any explanation or objective evidence as to how:
1. That deity exists is possible?
2. Possesses the supernatural powers required?
3. Those powers work, and are used?
If you can't you are demonstrably appealing to magic. This is your cue to use yet another straw man, to insist I evidence how the universe came to exist from only natural phenomena, despite me explaining each and every time, that I have made no such claim.
Are you claiming its impossible for the universe to have been caused intentionally? I ask again, what would be more magical an intelligent being operating outside of the universe to intentionally causing the universe or mindless unknown natural forces, operating outside of the universe unwittingly causing the universe and life to exist?
We don't dispute that the universe exists. We don't dispute life exists. What we dispute is how those things came into existence. I claim it was intentionally caused you claim it wasn't.
Quote:No idea what "far more magical" means, but this is yet another straw man fallacy, as no here has remotely claimed or implied this, laptops are not natural, they don't appear randomly in nature, it is an objective fact they are manmade and designed.
So a laptop isn't the result of mindless natural forces causing it to come into existence through happenstance, such as what you believe was the cause of the universe, correct? You identify a laptop as being an intentionally made contrivance. Even if you didn't know it was intentionally caused and only had the laptop to make such a determination you still wouldn't think it was the result of time and happenstance. Why? I suggest its because a laptop is extremely fine-tuned to perform computing. There are far too many components working in unison to perform a specific result. You would infer the laptop was the result of intent and planning. Likewise I infer the universe was intentionally caused and designed. Many scientists infer we live in a multiverse.
Quote: Also, it is an objective fact that natural phenomena exist, are causal, and possible, even if we don't understand what they might be, or how they worked in a particular instance.
We both agree a natural universe came into existence about 13.8 billion years ago and ultimately caused intelligent life to exist.
Quote:So whilst I can't claim the universe came about naturally, I can say they're more plausible than your claim for a creator deity using supernatural powers, as you're clearly violating Occam's razor by adding an deity, using inexplicable supernatural powers, neither of which you can demonstrate exist, or are even possible. Oh and you certainly have ignored that fact at every turn, so stop lying and projecting your dishonesty where it does not belong.
If you want to pull over Occam violators and issue a citation look no further than scientists claiming we live in a multiverse.
Occam's razor states between two competing explanations the one that invokes the fewest entities (less complex) is the preferred explanation. The caveat is that either explanation has to have explanatory power. The 'explanation' that the universe unintentionally came into existence by unknown forces that also came into existence unintentionally offers no explanation at all. Moreover it offers no explanation as to why such forces would also cause a universe in a specific configuration that allows life to exist. We also know somethings require a more complex explanation than natural forces and happenstance...such as the previously discussed laptop.
This is the problem with atheism. It doesn't offer a plausible explanation except multiverse which invokes entities to infinity any beyond!
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Current time: August 4, 2025, 9:44 am
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I will prove to you that God exists
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