Angrboda
Because you're invoking some other unknown law of physics that causes any universe that comes into existence to be the same as this one. You've offered no explanation or evidence a law causes all universes to be like this one. If our universe had to come out as it did, that is antithetical to the very notion the universe wasn't planned or intended to come out as it did...it just happen to serendipitously turned out as it did.
Do you actually believe there was some transcendent force external to the universe that caused this universe to be in an extremely narrow configuration to allow life? A cookie cutter mold right? I suspect not, this whole objection is a red herring.
A mother board is intentionally made to perform in a very narrow tolerance in order to work as intended. A resistor out of tolerance, a break in a solder point will cause it to malfunction. A motherboard in a computer is fine-tuned to perform computations and to display them. Once its determined the board works as expected, its put into mass production to pop out identical boards. Does that make them any less fine-tuned to perform calculations? No. Do they intentionally create motherboards to be fine tuned? Yes. If some how we found another universe and discovered it was identical to this one wouldn't that make the claim it was intentionally caused to exist stronger?
I haven't seen you present evidence of a force or power external to the universe that caused it to be fine-tuned for life. If you have such evidence of a force external to the universe that forced it to be as it is, you added more evidence of the existence of a Creator.
(April 10, 2025 at 12:05 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: They would still be in just as narrow a range as ever only now you're saying for some reason, they had to be in that narrow range. I believe it was designed to be in that narrow range and if other universes are the same that just more evidence it was intentionally caused. I'm pointing out this is a bad argument.
Quote:Quote:Well now I think you're just arguing semantics. Yes, in some sense they would still exist in a narrow range but their having the value that they do would no longer be something that required an explanation such as design by a god. If you don't know that they can vary, then you have no fact needing explanation, by gods or otherwise, it would just be a brute fact. Your argument for design requires that they can be something other than what they are, otherwise your entire argument from design is unsupported
Because you're invoking some other unknown law of physics that causes any universe that comes into existence to be the same as this one. You've offered no explanation or evidence a law causes all universes to be like this one. If our universe had to come out as it did, that is antithetical to the very notion the universe wasn't planned or intended to come out as it did...it just happen to serendipitously turned out as it did.
Do you actually believe there was some transcendent force external to the universe that caused this universe to be in an extremely narrow configuration to allow life? A cookie cutter mold right? I suspect not, this whole objection is a red herring.
A mother board is intentionally made to perform in a very narrow tolerance in order to work as intended. A resistor out of tolerance, a break in a solder point will cause it to malfunction. A motherboard in a computer is fine-tuned to perform computations and to display them. Once its determined the board works as expected, its put into mass production to pop out identical boards. Does that make them any less fine-tuned to perform calculations? No. Do they intentionally create motherboards to be fine tuned? Yes. If some how we found another universe and discovered it was identical to this one wouldn't that make the claim it was intentionally caused to exist stronger?
Quote:I have reviewed this thread and find no place where you clearly provided such evidence. I can only find three potential sources for a claim that you had done so in this thread which are your remarks concerning Victor Stenger's book, your noting that the cosmological constant was predicted to be much greater than it is, and your claim that eminent scientists believe in the multiverse hypothesis due to a lack of persuasiveness of other natural explanations combined with the assumption of fine tuning. In the latter case, the evidence would be what it was that convinced the scientists that the universe is fine tuned, including evidence that the characteristics could be other than what they are; in that they serve as proxy for the evidence itself and if those scientists do not have support for the possibility of variation, then their speculations are unsupported, regardless of what did or did not persuade them. I haven't seen you present any actual citations of scientists giving their reasons for subscribing to the multiverse hypothesis, so that isn't well supported either; so far we have only your say so in the matter.
I haven't seen you present evidence of a force or power external to the universe that caused it to be fine-tuned for life. If you have such evidence of a force external to the universe that forced it to be as it is, you added more evidence of the existence of a Creator.