(April 11, 2025 at 1:06 pm)Angrboda Wrote:(April 11, 2025 at 12:22 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: Angrboda
Because you're invoking some other unknown law of physics that causes any universe that comes into existence to be the same as this one. You've offered no explanation or evidence a law causes all universes to be like this one. If our universe had to come out as it did, that is antithetical to the very notion the universe wasn't planned or intended to come out as it did...it just happen to serendipitously turned out as it did.
Do you actually believe there was some transcendent force external to the universe that caused this universe to be in an extremely narrow configuration to allow life? A cookie cutter mold right? I suspect not, this whole objection is a red herring.
(April 11, 2025 at 12:22 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: A mother board is intentionally made to perform in a very narrow tolerance in order to work as intended. A resistor out of tolerance, a break in a solder point will cause it to malfunction. A motherboard in a computer is fine-tuned to perform computations and to display them. Once its determined the board works as expected, its put into mass production to pop out identical boards. Does that make them any less fine-tuned to perform calculations? No. Do they intentionally create motherboards to be fine tuned? Yes. If some how we found another universe and discovered it was identical to this one wouldn't that make the claim it was intentionally caused to exist stronger?
We know and have evidence that the characteristics of motherboards can and do vary. If they didn't, we wouldn't be able to make motherboards. So motherboards aren't analogous. If we found another universe like ours we simply wouldn't know one way or another just as now. At present, we simply don't know whether the constants and characteristics do or do not have an explanation, only that if they indeed have any explanation, we are ignorant of it. But our ignorance of something doesn't imply much of anything.
(April 11, 2025 at 12:22 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: I haven't seen you present evidence of a force or power external to the universe that caused it to be fine-tuned for life. If you have such evidence of a force external to the universe that forced it to be as it is, you added more evidence of the existence of a Creator.
I have presented no such evidence. Why do you think the force or power which caused the universe to have the characteristics it did is external, or need be external?
Let me present you with an analogy. Let's say that I come home one day to find a horse in my apartment. I don't see how it could have come through the door. Can I conclude that it got there by magic? Why or why not?
Quote:I'm not invoking any specific explanation. I'm pointing out that we simply don't know one way or another whether the characteristics could be other than what they are. Since any argument that a creator had to tune such things requires that they needed to be tuned, no such argument can get off the ground without some evidence that they would have needed tuning. It is a key premise of the argument from fine tuning that they could be or had to be tuned. If there's no evidence for this, then it isn't a sound argument for God. Since it has a material impact on the argument and issues in question, it is not a red herring. Though I will welcome any explanation from you as to why you think it is.
The key point is that they are tuned for life to occur. Even if the universe "had to be the way it is" for some unknown reason (such as being intentionally caused to exist) its still fine-tuned for life. You're offering an objection you admit is only a mere possibility which I seriously doubt you subscribe to.
Red Herring
a fact, idea, or subject that takes people's attention away from the central point being considered: