(April 11, 2025 at 9:51 am)Drew_2013 Wrote:(April 10, 2025 at 10:24 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: All you're demonstrating is that in any epistemological system the root cause has to be treated specially.
Put more simply, if you keep asking "Why" long enough you get to a point where you can't easily find an answer. This is true for everybody regardless of belief. Here's how it goes:
Theist:
Q:Why does the universe exist?
A: Because of the Big Bang.
Q: Why does the Big Bang exist?
A: God made it.
Q: Why does God exist?
A: I don't know.
Both camps arrive at the same inevitable conclusion, but theists use an extra step that invokes an all-powerful supernatural entity for which there is no evidence and no possible explanation. That step has negative value for a long list of reasons. First and foremost, it cuts the throat of your argument with Occam's razor due to the addition of an infinitely complex and utterly inexplicable entity. It also prevents any further examination by terminating the chain of reasoning in the ineffable. Ending with "Goddunnit" means that mortal minds can inquire no further, which is why the last answer you'll frequently hear from theists isn't an honest "I don't know" but rather a "Die heretic!" By contrast, the atheist, and anybody looking to natural explanations for that matter, can end with, "I don't know yet, but we're still looking." That gets you out into the wilderness of speculative cosmology, but at least there isn't a priest holding a big sign reading "Thou shalt not ask!" The root cause may always terminate at "I don't know" but that's no excuse to stop trying to push back the boundaries.
Is this the best you can do make up a conversation between yourself...and yourself?
No, that's my attempt at an honest reply to you. If all you can do is be dismissive then I've failed due to the person that I'm talking with being a close-minded imbecile. If you're done with that you can sit down and have a think about why adding an extra step that goes absolutely nowhere benefits anything.
Quote:Why do laptops exist?
Kindly read up on the Watchmaker Fallacy.
Quote:Your other complaint is your mistaken belief that if a Creator caused the universe to exist that ends all scientific theory and inquiry.
All inquiry period. You have arrived at The Great Unknown. Proceed No Further. Once you end the chain of questioning with "God" you are stuck. It isn't an answer, it's an excuse to stop thinking.
Quote:Theism is an explanation...
No, it isn't. You're going to tell me as much with your next breath.
Quote:...for why a universe came into existence and caused intelligent life to exist. Its not an explanation for why God exists. For that you need to speak to a theologian...which I am not.
There you are. No answer. Your chain of reasoning ends at "Go talk to a priest." That has zero explanatory power. Can I understand why the universe was Created? How it was Created? If another one might be Created soon? No, go talk to a priest. Goddunnit explains nothing.
Quote:If that was truly your position (or the position of atheists) you'd say the claim it was intentionally caused to exist is as good as any other explanation since in fact we don't know. That's never the position of the atheist. It's true they don't know why the universe came to exist, however despite the admission of ignorance they believe it was unintentionally caused by mindless natural forces. In short Naturedidit.
Because Goddunnit isn't as good. It fails to explain anything, it prevents any further inquiry, and it relies on an infinitely complex assumption for which we know that there is zero evidence.
Quote:I notice you're leaving multiverse out as a potential explanation presumably because it violates Occam's razor to infinity and beyond!
I left it out because it wasn't important to the discussion. First, multiverses aren't all infinite. Some are just very large. Second, an infinite multiverse is still preferable to god because the former relies solely on natural forces. It doesn't have to make up magical powers and give them an ego. If you pit infinite god against infinite multiverse Occam's razor cuts god's throat.