A Wild Elles Appeared!

[fr0d0]

The scale Dawkins uses is illogical because it contains first and last logical fallacies.

Yeah, not to mention a mis-definition of the word agnostic.

Well I totally agreed with your scale and reasoning for what it's worth.

Christians, like Arcanus has suggested, can be gnostic yet consistently do not claim empirical proof. This contradicts your statement.

Please point to where I said knowledge = empirical proof. I never did.

Fair enough, I retract

Arcanus's suggestion is perfectly right. Both Atheists and Theists have conclusively established (go read Arcanus's explanation of the logic linked above) the non existence and existence of God. No need for a jelly livered agnostic stance. You are an gnostic atheist.

If Arcanus' suggestion is that a conclusive argument is on which "adequately settles the question", then I am still an agnostic atheist. I don't think that any theistic arguments settle the question of "is there a God?", but likewise I don't think that any atheistic arguments settle the question either. I don't believe in god because I have nothing to base such belief on. That doesn't mean I have settled the question of whether god exists or not. I've only settled the question of whether there is enough reason to believe.

Neither do I think the arguments settle the question if you're talking from an impersonal position. I think Arcanus is talking about personally though. Personally I have conclusively established it. I would suggest that you have conclusively established the opposite - perhaps the personal nature needs clarifying? This would mean, and accurately it seems to me, that you're gnostic in your atheism. You don't need to have settled the question, in the same way that I haven't.. because I think you're talking about more than conclusively establishing.

There is nothing "jelly-livered" about agnosticism. It's a very logical position to take on claims that are literally untestable.

Granted.

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You need to go read the discussion I linked Rhizo. I like the description of this place.. excellent!

I just did, I still think you overstepped your bounds trying to tweak her definition of herself, because it is baseless. If she had said, "I am an agnostic who knows god doesn't exist" then you might have cause to correct her. That wasn't how this thing went though.

Rhizo

Fair enough then.