[quote='DeeTee' pid='280935' dateline='1336085113']
[quote]1. Just punishment should fit the crime. Hell is eternal torture, the likes of which are hard for me to imagine a crime that would warrant it. [/quote]
[quote]You are applying a human standard to a divine situation. But if you look at it carefully you would see that God is the lawgiver and He is the one who sets the penalties for breaking His law. The crime is rejection of His Son as savior thus the punishment does fit the crime.[/quote]
First of all DeeTee, it is customary around here to make an introduction in the Introduction thread before you go around posting in our threads. Please do so when you get a chance. Not a huge offense - it's just polite to do so.
Now to respond to your post: We've heard this copout before ... your god doesn't have to play by the rules that he set up for mankind. It's bullshit. Furthermore, being humans we have every right to apply human standards to our own plight. Judging finite mortals infinitely is not just nor does the punishment fit the crime.
[quote]2. Punishment should discourage bad behavior. Since Judgment Day comes as a surprise after our life is over, it doesn't do much to discourage bad behavior.[/quote]
[quote]Yet God does punish while people are on earth so that they will come to repentance. Sadly too many humans have added in their own ideas distorting what just punishment really is.
Also, judgement day is no surprise. The Book of Revelation has told everyone it is coming thus it is up to people to make the changes prior to dying. [/quote]
Nope. Justice is justice is justice and you don't get the right to re-define the word when it suits your needs. It's such a tired argument. As if your god can commit genocide on a whim and simply call it just because he's all-powerful. Oh wait ... he did just that didn't he.
[quote]3. Punishment should rehabilitate. Hell is eternal. There is no chance for parole. It's only function is to torture. [/quote]
[quote]Your chance to rehabilitate is done while you are alive NOT after you have died and realize that God exists. If you know the gospel message then you should do something about it right now not later when faith is not an issue.[/quote]
What about the billions who didn't know the "gospel message?"
[quote]4. The decision on who goes to Hell isn't based on how good or evil you were in life but on whether or not you joined the right religion and held the correct set of unproven metaphysical beliefs. No matter how evil you were, Christ will forgive you if you convert. No matter how good you were, Christ will condemn you if you don't convert. Therefore, Hell is not to punish wrongdoers but rather to torture wrong thinkers. This is not justice. This is a dictator tormenting non-loyal citizens.[/quote]
[quote]Now you are putting your ideas upon God's decisions. The key is not how good a life you lived, it is the mere fact that you you rejected Jesus as your Savior. Paul tells us that salvation is NOT by works but by faith in Jesus. You are trying to avoid the plan of salvation and want to get to heaven your own way and that wouldn't be fair.
You have to do it God's way after all it is God's kingdom so it is God's rules that apply.[/quote]
You missed the whole point here. #4 had NOTHING to do with works vs. faith, it was merely pointing them out to show that god only cares about who accepts him as the one god ... it has absolutely nothing to do with anything else.
[quote]5. No moral system of justice can allow an innocent person to take the place of a guilty criminal in punishment[/quote]
[quote]So you are rejecting God's way of salvation because someone else paid for your crimes? That does not seem logical. Are you saying that if someone does something nice for you like pay a bill that you would reject it because it is not moral? Of course it is moral and businesses accept payment from innocent people all the time when they are paying someone else's bill. If your thinking were correct, charities would not exist.[/quote]
Again you miss the point. Pay more attention to whats being written. The statement was referring to god's "unique (painfully flawed) justice" not whether or not we do or do not accept it.
.[quote]6. On earth, there is no way of knowing which Hell is the true Hell. Muslims never worry about the Christian Hell and vice versa. If life on earth is a "test", Yahweh-Allah has done a lousy job of making sure to administer the test fairly, since passing the test will depend greatly on accident of birth. [/quote]
[quote]That is why it is called 'faith' and 'free choice'. There are ways to tell which one is correct, you just seem to want the easy way out. No, accident of birth does not influence the message. All people are sent missionaries, pastors, believers to tell them the truth, it is not God's fault if unbelievers listening to evil try to thwart that message and cover it up.[/quote]
Massive line of bull shit right there. That didn't even address the point that #6 was making. Also, who is "you?" -- "you just seem to want the easy way out."
[quote]7. If life is a "test" as Muslims and Christians alike often like to say, what is the test designed to do exactly? Normally, tests separate a population into groups according to their performance. It seems the criteria to pass this "test" is gullibility, accepting claims simply on the say-so of clerical figures. So what is Yahweh-Allah looking for? Gullible boot-licking sycophants it would seem. [/quote]
[quote]Who said life is a test? Please quote a credible source for that thinking. Yet the population is seperated by the decisions they make--one is either a believer in Jesus or they are not. Allah is not God nor is he Yahweh, if you looked at Islamic history you would see that God came long before allah was mentioned and that allah needed the help of mohhomad to give him superiority. God does not need that aid.[/quote]
This is whole thread to itself, so I'm going to digress on this one for another day.
[quote]8. If Hell is eternal, wouldn't we get used to the pain eventually? After being on fire for 200 years, wouldn't we get accustomed to the sensation? Wouldn't our eyes adjust to the darkness? No matter how bad Hell is, humans would get used to it. Conversely with Heaven, humans would soften until the bliss became part of life. [/quote]
[quote]According to the Bible--No you wouldn't.[/quote]
Good thing the Bible is a silly fairy tale then.
[quote]9. What are Satan's motivations exactly? Does he win if he gets enough souls? Why would he torture souls that were not loyal to Yahweh/Allah? Even if Satan’s motivation for torturing humans is revenge against Yahweh/Allah, what possible satisfaction could be achieved by torturing people that god had already turned his back on for all eternity?[/quote]
[quote]1. He hates God. 2. NO. 3. See #1. 4. If you have read the Bible you will see that satan is tossed into the lake of fire along with the unbelieving humans, so he does not toture anyone nor do his minions. Their work is to deceive as many people as they can before time runs out in that way they hurt God by making Him destroy and reject the very souls He created and loves.[/quote]
Yes, I know what Lucifer's goals supposedly are. The questions are meant to remind a person how foolish the whole plot actually is.
[quote]10. What are Yahweh-Allah's motivations exactly? If the criteria of entrance to Heaven are submission and gullibility, this suggests a highly egotistical god, if not a narcissistic one. Such a god would be expected to make regular appearances to his followers to bask in their devotion. Yet this same god hides? And this is the same god of their scriptures who regularly intervenes in overt ways? This is not a consistent, believable character. [/quote]
[quote]1. He wanted to create which means you are wanted. 2. that is not the criteria for entrance to heaven. the criteria for entrance into heaven is found in John 3:16. God does NOT hide you may not believe He exists so why would He reveal Himself to you? 3. God is the same God in both the Old and NEw testaments and HE is the same God today. He doesn't change. He is very consistnet or He would not be God and humans would have no hope.
[/quote]
Nice contradicting. On one hand, you're telling me that Satan is trying to take as many souls with him to hell as possible in order to hurt god. And yet, your god doesn't seem to give a shit since he's not even willing to "reveal himself" to save me. Seems like a pretty simple thing to do to save someone you supposedly love. And by the way god is not consistent. he is constantly changing his mind and according to you and most of the christians on this site, most humans DON'T have hope. Ask your brothers in Christ ... the majority of humans burn in hell and the uber-elite go to Heaven.
Every one of your rebuttals is a exercise in word gymnastics. Congratulations, you're like every other christian that shows up here.
[quote]1. Just punishment should fit the crime. Hell is eternal torture, the likes of which are hard for me to imagine a crime that would warrant it. [/quote]
[quote]You are applying a human standard to a divine situation. But if you look at it carefully you would see that God is the lawgiver and He is the one who sets the penalties for breaking His law. The crime is rejection of His Son as savior thus the punishment does fit the crime.[/quote]
First of all DeeTee, it is customary around here to make an introduction in the Introduction thread before you go around posting in our threads. Please do so when you get a chance. Not a huge offense - it's just polite to do so.
Now to respond to your post: We've heard this copout before ... your god doesn't have to play by the rules that he set up for mankind. It's bullshit. Furthermore, being humans we have every right to apply human standards to our own plight. Judging finite mortals infinitely is not just nor does the punishment fit the crime.
[quote]2. Punishment should discourage bad behavior. Since Judgment Day comes as a surprise after our life is over, it doesn't do much to discourage bad behavior.[/quote]
[quote]Yet God does punish while people are on earth so that they will come to repentance. Sadly too many humans have added in their own ideas distorting what just punishment really is.
Also, judgement day is no surprise. The Book of Revelation has told everyone it is coming thus it is up to people to make the changes prior to dying. [/quote]
Nope. Justice is justice is justice and you don't get the right to re-define the word when it suits your needs. It's such a tired argument. As if your god can commit genocide on a whim and simply call it just because he's all-powerful. Oh wait ... he did just that didn't he.
[quote]3. Punishment should rehabilitate. Hell is eternal. There is no chance for parole. It's only function is to torture. [/quote]
[quote]Your chance to rehabilitate is done while you are alive NOT after you have died and realize that God exists. If you know the gospel message then you should do something about it right now not later when faith is not an issue.[/quote]
What about the billions who didn't know the "gospel message?"
[quote]4. The decision on who goes to Hell isn't based on how good or evil you were in life but on whether or not you joined the right religion and held the correct set of unproven metaphysical beliefs. No matter how evil you were, Christ will forgive you if you convert. No matter how good you were, Christ will condemn you if you don't convert. Therefore, Hell is not to punish wrongdoers but rather to torture wrong thinkers. This is not justice. This is a dictator tormenting non-loyal citizens.[/quote]
[quote]Now you are putting your ideas upon God's decisions. The key is not how good a life you lived, it is the mere fact that you you rejected Jesus as your Savior. Paul tells us that salvation is NOT by works but by faith in Jesus. You are trying to avoid the plan of salvation and want to get to heaven your own way and that wouldn't be fair.
You have to do it God's way after all it is God's kingdom so it is God's rules that apply.[/quote]
You missed the whole point here. #4 had NOTHING to do with works vs. faith, it was merely pointing them out to show that god only cares about who accepts him as the one god ... it has absolutely nothing to do with anything else.
[quote]5. No moral system of justice can allow an innocent person to take the place of a guilty criminal in punishment[/quote]
[quote]So you are rejecting God's way of salvation because someone else paid for your crimes? That does not seem logical. Are you saying that if someone does something nice for you like pay a bill that you would reject it because it is not moral? Of course it is moral and businesses accept payment from innocent people all the time when they are paying someone else's bill. If your thinking were correct, charities would not exist.[/quote]
Again you miss the point. Pay more attention to whats being written. The statement was referring to god's "unique (painfully flawed) justice" not whether or not we do or do not accept it.
.[quote]6. On earth, there is no way of knowing which Hell is the true Hell. Muslims never worry about the Christian Hell and vice versa. If life on earth is a "test", Yahweh-Allah has done a lousy job of making sure to administer the test fairly, since passing the test will depend greatly on accident of birth. [/quote]
[quote]That is why it is called 'faith' and 'free choice'. There are ways to tell which one is correct, you just seem to want the easy way out. No, accident of birth does not influence the message. All people are sent missionaries, pastors, believers to tell them the truth, it is not God's fault if unbelievers listening to evil try to thwart that message and cover it up.[/quote]
Massive line of bull shit right there. That didn't even address the point that #6 was making. Also, who is "you?" -- "you just seem to want the easy way out."
[quote]7. If life is a "test" as Muslims and Christians alike often like to say, what is the test designed to do exactly? Normally, tests separate a population into groups according to their performance. It seems the criteria to pass this "test" is gullibility, accepting claims simply on the say-so of clerical figures. So what is Yahweh-Allah looking for? Gullible boot-licking sycophants it would seem. [/quote]
[quote]Who said life is a test? Please quote a credible source for that thinking. Yet the population is seperated by the decisions they make--one is either a believer in Jesus or they are not. Allah is not God nor is he Yahweh, if you looked at Islamic history you would see that God came long before allah was mentioned and that allah needed the help of mohhomad to give him superiority. God does not need that aid.[/quote]
This is whole thread to itself, so I'm going to digress on this one for another day.
[quote]8. If Hell is eternal, wouldn't we get used to the pain eventually? After being on fire for 200 years, wouldn't we get accustomed to the sensation? Wouldn't our eyes adjust to the darkness? No matter how bad Hell is, humans would get used to it. Conversely with Heaven, humans would soften until the bliss became part of life. [/quote]
[quote]According to the Bible--No you wouldn't.[/quote]
Good thing the Bible is a silly fairy tale then.
[quote]9. What are Satan's motivations exactly? Does he win if he gets enough souls? Why would he torture souls that were not loyal to Yahweh/Allah? Even if Satan’s motivation for torturing humans is revenge against Yahweh/Allah, what possible satisfaction could be achieved by torturing people that god had already turned his back on for all eternity?[/quote]
[quote]1. He hates God. 2. NO. 3. See #1. 4. If you have read the Bible you will see that satan is tossed into the lake of fire along with the unbelieving humans, so he does not toture anyone nor do his minions. Their work is to deceive as many people as they can before time runs out in that way they hurt God by making Him destroy and reject the very souls He created and loves.[/quote]
Yes, I know what Lucifer's goals supposedly are. The questions are meant to remind a person how foolish the whole plot actually is.
[quote]10. What are Yahweh-Allah's motivations exactly? If the criteria of entrance to Heaven are submission and gullibility, this suggests a highly egotistical god, if not a narcissistic one. Such a god would be expected to make regular appearances to his followers to bask in their devotion. Yet this same god hides? And this is the same god of their scriptures who regularly intervenes in overt ways? This is not a consistent, believable character. [/quote]
[quote]1. He wanted to create which means you are wanted. 2. that is not the criteria for entrance to heaven. the criteria for entrance into heaven is found in John 3:16. God does NOT hide you may not believe He exists so why would He reveal Himself to you? 3. God is the same God in both the Old and NEw testaments and HE is the same God today. He doesn't change. He is very consistnet or He would not be God and humans would have no hope.
[/quote]
Nice contradicting. On one hand, you're telling me that Satan is trying to take as many souls with him to hell as possible in order to hurt god. And yet, your god doesn't seem to give a shit since he's not even willing to "reveal himself" to save me. Seems like a pretty simple thing to do to save someone you supposedly love. And by the way god is not consistent. he is constantly changing his mind and according to you and most of the christians on this site, most humans DON'T have hope. Ask your brothers in Christ ... the majority of humans burn in hell and the uber-elite go to Heaven.
Every one of your rebuttals is a exercise in word gymnastics. Congratulations, you're like every other christian that shows up here.
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