everyone (else) seems to be hating on atheists

[Jesus Pipes]

Have you been to jesus pipes' website? I'm not at all clear what beliefs are being espoused other than that smoking a pipe (of anything) will somehow help you meditate on Jesus' teachings. A distinction is made between what the bible says and what Jesus says.

Jesus pipes,

If Jesus' message was that man could know God without the Old Testament, I assume you would say man can know Jesus/God/whatever without the New Testament too? Afterall, Jesus had no part in putting it together and knew nothing of it. If he thought it important to leave specific instructions behind don't you think he'd have put a scribe to work? If you agree that neither the NT nor the OT is needed to know God, would you also agree that Jesus too is superfluous? When he is quoted as saying "I am the way", do you think he meant his personhood/essence or did he mean the way exemplified by his life?

What do you think Jesus would have said is important? That you win his favor or that you follow his example? Do you think Jesus would have thought his personal history was so important?

I'd be curious to hear you say more if there is anymore to say.

Good thought provoking questions. I posed this to a few people and put it on the JP forum.

David -
I'll take a crack at it....

I'd say it's pretty clear that, if Jesus didn't believe in his outright divinity, he definitely believed he was the Exemplar toward a new way of worship and spirituality for the Jewish people primarily (he brought his message to them first, but also to others when the opportunity presented). And no, he didn't employ any scribes to record his teachings, but he did have followers, and some of them he knew were educated enough to probably record at least some of his teachings. As far as specific instructions, he taught us how to pray ("Lord's Prayer"), how to remember him (on Nisan 14, passing bread and wine), and how to take the good news to the people.

As far as "knowing God"... I feel that in order to know God as he is espoused by Jesus, yes, you need to know the New Testament. This, however, leads to what is I think the ultimate question, and that is, can one know God without Christ, without the Bible? Can one lead an essentially righteous, Christ-like way of life without ever knowing him? I say yes. I believe his example is more powerful than his supposed divine personhood, and seeking his favor. To say anything else would be to relinquish the power of our own will, since that alone will keep us on the path following his example. I believe how he treated and interacted with his disciples is how he would treat and interact with us. I believe any allusions to his divinity were trumped up by others after his death, as his teachings were used to construct a religion with congregations and all sorts of rules that suddenly prescribed how people were to implement His love instead of letting their faith take its own form.

Do I think his personal history was important? In a word, no. Inasmuch as it supports his teachings, perhaps, but it's clear our tendency is to dissect things that don't really matter, merely for the sake of argument. So the circumstances in which he was born, his mother, his occupation, the city in which he lived, all this, I believe, is superfluous. Interesting, but certainly not bearing on anything he taught, but most significantly, just contributes to the various forms of mysticism surrounding his life.

So, to sum it all up: No, I don't think Jesus is "superfluous"; but yes, it is possible to lead a righteous life without knowing him, since it is his example that was important and not his supposed divinity. It is possible that the essence of his truth exists in the world apart from him, and I believe he would be the first to recognize it.

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There are quite a few atheists who do not approve of the confrontational antics of some of the more hardcore Atheists because they rightfully believe it paints a negative image of their views. Instead of showing atheists (well non-spiritual atheists in this instance) as good people who do not need a belief system to tell them how to live a righteous life , it paints a picture of them being as backward and vile as the Evangelicals.

for me, it's not only that it paints a negative view, it's that i'm new to being around other atheists at all, so i'm learning what terms mean and how people communicate their lack of beliefs as well as how theists came to believe what they believe. it's a learning deal for me. once the general convo degrades to solely name-calling, there will be nothing more of value to me and i'll be gone. never was much of a groupie anyway, i do my own thing.

I think theists got that way because they were born and raised in it. It is hard to get out of a system when your whole network is entwined in it. I know some ex jehovah witnesses whose families won't even talk to them any more because they don't share the same faith. Again, a lot of these religions are tough on a person if they start thinking a different way.

A lot of atheists became that way because they hated the dogma of organized religion or they just started thinking that nothing about religion made any sense. Whatever you believe, I think the most important thing is to become more educated on the subject and do whatever makes you a better person to others.

Let's be honest, no one on this planet can either prove or disprove the existence of a higher power.