Ok guys this thread stems from posts made here. But also human history in general. The point of it is to try to get BOTH atheists and theists over the stupid fear of word choice.
Outside this thread in real history the bruised ego in human evolution has created horrible societies that when offended oppress the ones that have offended them. In Iran you cannot only not offend the government, you cannot offend Shiite Islam. In North Korea you cannot offend the state.
But on a website like this I really don't see what either an atheist or theist has to fear. It not only welcomes both atheists and theists, it allows us to respond to each other, and has an ignore option if we do not like someone. It has no power to have anyone killed or arrested, but only the power to boot someone off.
I cannot see a better safe haven for both the atheist and the theist to duke it out without fear of the other. We in the west take it for granted that we will always be able say what we want, I think that is a mistake.
Every time we debate including ridicule or blasphemy or even insults WE are proving that we can have a verbal fight without it coming to real violence. That is something far too many countries, especially in Africa and in in the Middle East do not have the luxury of.
The non Shiites and non Muslims living in Iran have the right to bitch about being oppressed. Any North Korean who has escaped can tell you what oppression is.
So I really DO get a severe lip twitch when someone bitches about having their claims picked on claiming that being offended is some sort of crime.
Talk to the women of Afghanistan who get beaten for merely having their veil fall off. THAT IS OFFENSIVE. The worst anyone here has to worry about is a "bullshit" or a "fuck you", including me.
So my advice to both atheists and theists who value taboos as a solution, is to grow up. We have the luxury of protection of dissent and none of us can be arrested for offending each other.
And I am not writing any of this just because of my recent history here. I have had this beef many times before with well intended people long before I got here.
If we all accept that there are no real weapons being used to really murder people here. And we all agree that none of us, no matter what we say to each other is a cause to call for violence or to actually act out in violence, then no one should complain about merely being offended.
There are places where BOTH a Christian and and atheist, just for the mere act of not picking the right club or expressing openly a different club can get you arrested or murdered.
So again, lets all be adults here and not be so self centered as to think a bruised ego is the worst thing in the world. People who don't want their egos bruised are the ones who set up fascist states and fascist theocracies.
I have never been a fan of the idea that civility should include always avoiding conflict and never offending anyone.
"Don't offend me" Is the demand of North Korea. "Don't offend me" is the demand of Iran and the Imams who control it.
Every time we say "fuck you" to each other and no one dies, we show the real assholes what civility is and what free speech is.
So please people, please separate issues here. We can box and still after that boxing like each other. I do not want to live in a society that plays though or morality police, that is what they do.
And again, I cannot state it enough. I have family and friends and co-workers who believe things and make claims that make me want to pull my hair out. And I damned sure know that people, both atheists and theists here have said "that guy is a fucking asshole" about me.
BUT THAT IS WHAT MAKES US CIVIL, not setting up taboos, but the ability to still bitch and complain knowing in reality that everyone is going to bed at night in one piece. We have that luxury, far too many in the world do not.
"The first person to hurl an insult instead of a stone started civilization" Freud.
LETS DUKE IT OUT AND STOP BITCHING ABOUT EGOS BEING BRUISED.
No one is going to die or be arrested so quit your bitching about others bitching and even bitch about this post. But do not pretend that life always owes you peaches and cream. There are REAL people in REAL places who are REAL victims. None of us here are, not you, not me, no one.
I am not owed kind words myself and I am not expecting everyone here to like me or only say nice things about me. But that is reality and that is the price you pay for living in societies that allow for dissent and disagreement. None of us, if we value our own rights, have any right to demand the right to be free from being offended.
Outside this thread in real history the bruised ego in human evolution has created horrible societies that when offended oppress the ones that have offended them. In Iran you cannot only not offend the government, you cannot offend Shiite Islam. In North Korea you cannot offend the state.
But on a website like this I really don't see what either an atheist or theist has to fear. It not only welcomes both atheists and theists, it allows us to respond to each other, and has an ignore option if we do not like someone. It has no power to have anyone killed or arrested, but only the power to boot someone off.
I cannot see a better safe haven for both the atheist and the theist to duke it out without fear of the other. We in the west take it for granted that we will always be able say what we want, I think that is a mistake.
Every time we debate including ridicule or blasphemy or even insults WE are proving that we can have a verbal fight without it coming to real violence. That is something far too many countries, especially in Africa and in in the Middle East do not have the luxury of.
The non Shiites and non Muslims living in Iran have the right to bitch about being oppressed. Any North Korean who has escaped can tell you what oppression is.
So I really DO get a severe lip twitch when someone bitches about having their claims picked on claiming that being offended is some sort of crime.
Talk to the women of Afghanistan who get beaten for merely having their veil fall off. THAT IS OFFENSIVE. The worst anyone here has to worry about is a "bullshit" or a "fuck you", including me.
So my advice to both atheists and theists who value taboos as a solution, is to grow up. We have the luxury of protection of dissent and none of us can be arrested for offending each other.
And I am not writing any of this just because of my recent history here. I have had this beef many times before with well intended people long before I got here.
If we all accept that there are no real weapons being used to really murder people here. And we all agree that none of us, no matter what we say to each other is a cause to call for violence or to actually act out in violence, then no one should complain about merely being offended.
There are places where BOTH a Christian and and atheist, just for the mere act of not picking the right club or expressing openly a different club can get you arrested or murdered.
So again, lets all be adults here and not be so self centered as to think a bruised ego is the worst thing in the world. People who don't want their egos bruised are the ones who set up fascist states and fascist theocracies.
I have never been a fan of the idea that civility should include always avoiding conflict and never offending anyone.
"Don't offend me" Is the demand of North Korea. "Don't offend me" is the demand of Iran and the Imams who control it.
Every time we say "fuck you" to each other and no one dies, we show the real assholes what civility is and what free speech is.
So please people, please separate issues here. We can box and still after that boxing like each other. I do not want to live in a society that plays though or morality police, that is what they do.
And again, I cannot state it enough. I have family and friends and co-workers who believe things and make claims that make me want to pull my hair out. And I damned sure know that people, both atheists and theists here have said "that guy is a fucking asshole" about me.
BUT THAT IS WHAT MAKES US CIVIL, not setting up taboos, but the ability to still bitch and complain knowing in reality that everyone is going to bed at night in one piece. We have that luxury, far too many in the world do not.
"The first person to hurl an insult instead of a stone started civilization" Freud.
LETS DUKE IT OUT AND STOP BITCHING ABOUT EGOS BEING BRUISED.
No one is going to die or be arrested so quit your bitching about others bitching and even bitch about this post. But do not pretend that life always owes you peaches and cream. There are REAL people in REAL places who are REAL victims. None of us here are, not you, not me, no one.
I am not owed kind words myself and I am not expecting everyone here to like me or only say nice things about me. But that is reality and that is the price you pay for living in societies that allow for dissent and disagreement. None of us, if we value our own rights, have any right to demand the right to be free from being offended.
