(July 11, 2012 at 11:46 pm)Godschild Wrote:
RD Wrote:I was under the impression reading is a form of study and read I have on numerous subjects not least of all religion. The Bible is a book I have read on the subject. I also took RE as an applied subject for five years and was raised by a catholic mother. What particular form of study have you undergone that gives you better insight? Scientists at first learn through reading, discussion and lectures, they later learn from experiments which successfully apply what they have learned. I have read about, discussed and attended lectures on religion. Seen as religion doesn't have an equivalent to experimentation what are you suggesting? You can't possibly accuse me of lacking knowledge if you don't outline what that knowledge is and where it comes from. Otherwise its a statement without any meaning behind it, you'd be calling me ignorant for the sake of
We someone says they read something I'm going to take it they read through and did not bother to understand what the literature means, and I find that most nonbelievers do just that. Cherry picking through scriptures to find something they believe will support their POV, they do not bother to search scriptures to find the true meanings, then I have to do that for them, maybe their just lazy.
What you described above is studying, studying also involves listening to those who have greater knowledge of a subject and then checking it out, this is one of the primary ways I study. Also going to sources that are reliable to help determine the meaning of ancient languages, those written by scholars of that field.
RD Wrote:If what you say is true then the only reason he put the apple there was to experience temporary worship and control over those he had created. He knew they would take it and he knew he would cast them out as a result into a land of suffering where they would wither and die. He knew this yet he still went through with it just so he could have his own personal fan club for a while before disowning them due to a circumstance of his own creation.
These are the implications of what you have just written, how is this not a despicable being?
No, the reason God placed the tree in the Garden was to allow man to have a choice. If God had not done that then all would be nothing more than God's little robots, is that what you would really want? How is it you can say God created that situation and say you have studied scripture. According to the scriptures the creation was perfect, why would God create a perfect situation and then destroy it, you make no sense in your argument.
Adam and Eve knew the consequences for their disobedience, death, and they understood what God was saying, a spiritual and physical death, God created man with knowledge, just why would God give people conditions and not give them the ability to understand. If one believes that God would do that one is either not reasoning or they just do not care, and if the later, do not need to be in a discussion on the subject. God would be despicable if He had not given choice to us, and just made us His little robots. Is this the way you would want to live, under the thumb of a god who would make you do what He wanted, if God wanted to keep control over man He would have done just that to man.
RD Wrote:He knew this obedience wouldn't be given forever, he knew it like he supposedly knows everything. If what unfolded unfolded then it could not of unfolded any other way, in a universe where omnipotence is possible freewill is not. He made the decision to put the apple there knowing where it would lead and put it there anyway. The victims of these machinations would not be to blame, it would be the one who designed them and the guilt would rest entirely with him. A parent would not do this to their child, it would be cruelty of the highest degree. Obedience is not trust. You trust in friends, you trust in family and in mentors. You do not serve them. Obedience is what a slave would have for his master. If you do not believe me you should look up the two definitions and see how they look side by side.
God did not design any situation, yes He knew the outcome, but He did no force them to disobey. Your trying to say God is a game fixer, a game fixer makes sure the game turns out the way He wants it, there is no choice. If God were a game fixer He would have made sure the outcome would be one where the world would stay in a perfect state, as He created it, this is a reasonable conclusion. He would have removed all the hardship He had to deal with on man's behalf, He wouldn't have made the plan that caused His Son's death, a death he suffered because of sin, it was a death by sin.
So every parent that does not child proof their home to the point a child does not have to be told about anything that could harm them is cruel to the highest degree, this is the comparison you are making.
Your lack of understanding of obedience surprises me. Obedience is trust, when a child obeys the parent it is trusting in the parent to be right. Obedience is a two way street of love, a parent tells a child not to do a thing to protect the child, this is done in love for the child, and in obedience to the parent the child shows love for the parent, trusting the parent is correct in tell him/her not to do something that would hurt the child. You see I do know what obedience and trust are, they are tied together by love.
RD Wrote:I will put the query to you more clearly with what you've written taken into account:
Why would a loving God set a course of events he knew would cause pain and suffering to his creations for the sake of temporary servility from them?
If creating a being like him was his goal why did he not simply create beings like him to begin with?
I don't know is an acceptable answer if that is the only one you can honestly say you have.
I do not have to say I do not know, I've showed this by my above statements, you seem to be trying to encourage me to concede on all points, why is this, I know it's not because I do not understand the details and truth of this discussion.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
