RE: Is Christianity Illogical?
July 15, 2012 at 8:30 am
(This post was last modified: July 15, 2012 at 9:01 am by spockrates.)
(July 14, 2012 at 9:04 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:Agreed about so-called modern miracles. There is much hype, rather than miraculous healing, in some Christian circles.spockrates Wrote:If God were alive today and visited us in human form, would you expect him to do anything less than--well, miraculous? But what evidence would you accept to prove that someone did things no other man ever did? If the written accounts do not convince, then what would?
The written accounts are a step down to what would be convincing; a modern day miracle. If prayer actually healed once out of all the times I've seen it 'at work' around my church then I wouldn't be in disbelief today.
When it comes to Jesus, however, he appears to be the real deal. Telling a crippled man who has not moved his legs in years to get up and walk and seeing him do so in front of a crowd of skeptics and enemies, and causing a man born blind to see for the first time are two that come to mind. I think it is worth noting that the enemies of Jesus who sought to discredit him never said his miracles were faked. Instead, they accepted the reality of them, but claimed they were caused by demonic powers. This claim is made in both biblical and non-biblical writings.
(July 15, 2012 at 2:58 am)FallentoReason Wrote:spockrates Wrote:Jesus gives an alternat interpretation of the relationship between John the Baptist and Elijah in Matthew, chapter 11, if you care to discuss it:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...on=NIV1984
My thought is that Jesus' explanation is closer to what is true, for he knew John better than me, or you.
My thoughts are that Matthew tried to explain away what Mark had done. Convenient that this explanation came from Jesus' mouth eh?
I don't follow you, yet. Please explain how Matthew tried to explain away Mark.
(July 15, 2012 at 2:58 am)FallentoReason Wrote:spockrates Wrote:Are you not surprised to learn, Fallen that Jesus states the words describing Elijah in the Old Testament actually are predictions?
I already knew that. But do you see that what Jesus 'quotes' is a prediction about Elijah himself and not John the Baptist? He's talking about Malachi 3:1 and if we read the end of this book we read Malachi 4:5 which says 'I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord."
I believe there are two predictions, here. Since the Day of the Lord (or the day of Jesus' return to earth in physical form) has not occurred, Malachi 4:5 has yet to come true. It is entirely possible the Elijah of the Old Testament will return, and there are some Jewish families even today who keep an empty chair for him at their dinner tables during a certain annual Jewish religious observance.
That leaves us with Malachi 3. Are you saying Jesus was mistaken in saying the prediction was of his cousin, who was a type of Elijah?
(July 15, 2012 at 7:09 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:(July 14, 2012 at 8:30 pm)spockrates Wrote: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
(Matthew 19)
Jesus had an appreciation for the absurd, too. And the courage to poke fun at the wealthy and powerful. Don't you think?
I saw a documentary which among other things explained that the word Camel was actually a misstranslation of the word rope.
Quote:the Greek word kamilos ('camel') should really be kamêlos, meaning 'cable, rope', as some late New Testament manuscripts1 actually have here. Hence it is easier to thread a needle with a rope rather than a strand of cotton than for a rich man to enter the kingdom
I suppose that idea gives a little more hope to rich folk!
![Big Grin Big Grin](https://atheistforums.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
In either case, I suppose Jesus would be using hyperbole. The thought of trying to thread a needle with a camel would get more laughs, I think.
"If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (no matter how improbable) must be the truth."
--Spock
--Spock