(September 1, 2012 at 7:04 pm)Atom Wrote:(September 1, 2012 at 3:53 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Before we can answer that, it's necessary to know what, precisely, would constitute "an absolute external standard". If you can supply that, the discussion can proceed.I didn't have anything specific in mind for the meanings of these words, but here is something to work with:
absolute = the same for all people all the time.
external = originating from outside the person.
I think you're trying to re-work the definition of "objective" in order to rig the discussion.
I just looked up the word "objective" and the word "external standard" isn't part of the definition. There are references of "external to the mind" (or of a beings opinions) but not "external standard".
Definition by dictionary.com
Quote:5.not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
6.intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.
7.being the object of perception or thought; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject ( opposed to subjective).
8.of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
But you want to sneak in "external standard" to the definition so you can say "God is external, ergo any rules he makes up are objective rules for us".
Sorry, but that's not what we're discussing. "Objective morals" need to be independent of ANY being's feelings, thoughts, opinions, values, etc. That's one reason why theistic morality fails to gain any advantage over secular morality.
And I maintain that "objective morals" is an oxymoron, like "jumbo shrimp", "unnecessary essentials" or "honest politician". Morals are based on values. Values are, by definition, subjective. So "objective morals" translates to "values not based on values".
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist