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How to beat a presupp at their own game
March 17, 2021 at 4:10 am
Hi everyone,
I'm an atheist, although I've really just suppressed my belief in God for 30 years... which is what some theists will tell me. I joined Discord a week ago and I listened to the chats in one of the theist servers
The chat server is filled with presupps and the number one objection for atheism that I hear is what grounds our atheism? What grounds do we have for facts and knowledge? How can we know anything in a godless world?
From their view, God is the foundation of knowledge. It's self-justifying - how do they know? God revealed it through special and divine revelation and therefore they cannot be wrong. So to deny this, means that atheists are appealing to a non-personal universe (??) (I'm probably not stating this argument 100%, I"m tired and haven't slept)
If you say the universe is my starting point as an atheist, they'll say what grounds the universe?
One of the primary presupps there is Darth Darkins. Anyone know how to dismantle this type of argument?
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RE: How to beat a presupp at their own game
March 17, 2021 at 4:17 am
(This post was last modified: March 17, 2021 at 4:34 am by Belacqua.)
(March 17, 2021 at 4:10 am)Superjock Wrote: What grounds do we have for facts and knowledge? How can we know anything in a godless world?
These are certainly good questions. It seems like we should have answers ready when someone asks.
What answers have you given so far?
edited to add:
It looks as though the guy you're referring to goes by "Darth Dawkins." Not "Darkins." He has gotten a certain amount of Internet fame.
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RE: How to beat a presupp at their own game
March 17, 2021 at 4:40 am
(This post was last modified: March 17, 2021 at 4:42 am by Superjock.)
(March 17, 2021 at 4:17 am)Belacqua Wrote: (March 17, 2021 at 4:10 am)Superjock Wrote: What grounds do we have for facts and knowledge? How can we know anything in a godless world?
These are certainly good questions. It seems like we should have answers ready when someone asks.
What answers have you given so far?
edited to add:
It looks as though the guy you're referring to goes by "Darth Dawkins." Not "Darkins." He has gotten a certain amount of Internet fame.
Sorry, Darth Dawkins. He is on the Reformation server on Discord every day, and last night he was basically bullying a woman who was an agnostic in this way, by essentially making her concede that her position was just completely arbitrary.
He then attempted to discredit Evolution for 30 minutes.
If someone asks me how do I know if the existance or the universe is the absolute grounding (Darth likes to use the words Ultimate in particular) my answer is I don't know.
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RE: How to beat a presupp at their own game
March 17, 2021 at 5:27 am
At work.
I must admit my one and only breif interaction with Master Dawkin's was rather brusk.
I think the only question that was asked of me was,
"Where do the laws of logic come from?"
To which I replied (Again pending an aging memory) that,
"They are emergent properties created via the definitions with which we imbue/create language?"
Or something similar.
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RE: How to beat a presupp at their own game
March 17, 2021 at 5:34 am
(March 17, 2021 at 4:40 am)Superjock Wrote: If someone asks me how do I know if the existance or the universe is the absolute grounding (Darth likes to use the words Ultimate in particular) my answer is I don't know.
I think "I don't know" is a wise position.
The trouble is that guys like him who like to fight will take it as an expression of weakness, and try to pound you over the head with it. I don't think they are interested in the truth -- only in winning. As if "winning" debates on the Internet were worth anything.
Epistemology is a fascinating subject, though. Probably you've already spelled out the standard position: we hold things to be true based on either 1) experience, or 2) logic.
Since we are easily fooled by experience, and don't have access to any "absolute" source of knowledge, the best we can do is just double check things and remain modest.
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RE: How to beat a presupp at their own game
March 17, 2021 at 5:50 am
(March 17, 2021 at 4:10 am)Superjock Wrote: The chat server is filled with presupps and the number one objection for atheism that I hear is what grounds our atheism? What grounds do we have for facts and knowledge? How can we know anything in a godless world?
From their view, God is the foundation of knowledge. It's self-justifying - how do they know? God revealed it through special and divine revelation and therefore they cannot be wrong.
Theists usually use logical fallacies, like the one you mention:
Quote:God is the foundation of knowledge. It's self-justifying - how do they know? God revealed it through special and divine revelation and therefore they cannot be wrong.
That is called circular reasoning. So perhaps the question is how does one argue against logical fallacies? They said "God is the foundation of knowledge" but then which God? There is a God of Mahabharata for instance who also left "divine revelation".
So yeah it is a lot of theist shit (fallacies, lies, and delusions) crammed in few sentences so you first have to dismantle it and Discord perhaps doesn't give you enough room for it.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: How to beat a presupp at their own game
March 17, 2021 at 5:56 am
(March 17, 2021 at 4:10 am)Superjock Wrote: Hi everyone,
I'm an atheist, although I've really just suppressed my belief in God for 30 years... which is what some theists will tell me. I joined Discord a week ago and I listened to the chats in one of the theist servers
The chat server is filled with presupps and the number one objection for atheism that I hear is what grounds our atheism? What grounds do we have for facts and knowledge? How can we know anything in a godless world?
From their view, God is the foundation of knowledge. It's self-justifying - how do they know? God revealed it through special and divine revelation and therefore they cannot be wrong. So to deny this, means that atheists are appealing to a non-personal universe (??) (I'm probably not stating this argument 100%, I"m tired and haven't slept)
If you say the universe is my starting point as an atheist, they'll say what grounds the universe?
One of the primary presupps there is Darth Darkins. Anyone know how to dismantle this type of argument?
On the face of it, it's a circular argument that boils down to, 'I believe in God because God told me I believe in God'. But if you want to beat them at their own game, question their questions.
'What grounds your atheism?' 'Why does my atheism need grounding at all?'
'What grounds your facts and knowledge?' 'You don't really grasp what atheism is, do you?'
'How can you know anything in a godless world?' 'How can YOU know anything in a godded one?'
'What grounds the universe?' 'What grounds God? If God doesn't require grounding, why should the universe?'
And so on. Since it isn't possible to logically refute an argument that isn't based in logic in the first place, your best option is to make them look silly for asking these non-questions.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: How to beat a presupp at their own game
March 17, 2021 at 6:32 am
(This post was last modified: March 17, 2021 at 6:41 am by Superjock.)
(March 17, 2021 at 5:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: (March 17, 2021 at 4:10 am)Superjock Wrote: The chat server is filled with presupps and the number one objection for atheism that I hear is what grounds our atheism? What grounds do we have for facts and knowledge? How can we know anything in a godless world?
From their view, God is the foundation of knowledge. It's self-justifying - how do they know? God revealed it through special and divine revelation and therefore they cannot be wrong.
Theists usually use logical fallacies, like the one you mention:
Quote:God is the foundation of knowledge. It's self-justifying - how do they know? God revealed it through special and divine revelation and therefore they cannot be wrong.
That is called circular reasoning. So perhaps the question is how does one argue against logical fallacies? They said "God is the foundation of knowledge" but then which God? There is a God of Mahabharata for instance who also left "divine revelation".
So yeah it is a lot of theist shit (fallacies, lies, and delusions) crammed in few sentences so you first have to dismantle it and Discord perhaps doesn't give you enough room for it.
The God used in particular is the Christian God. Do yourself a favour, later today, join the Reformation channel on Discord and listen to their argument. Either an agnostic or an atheist will chime in and then their argument gets deconstructed. You'll see what I mean.
If anyone wants I can send them an invite link to the Reformation server so they can chime in. Atheists have to have each others backs!  Even if all of this is for entertainment sake.
(March 17, 2021 at 5:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: (March 17, 2021 at 4:10 am)Superjock Wrote: The chat server is filled with presupps and the number one objection for atheism that I hear is what grounds our atheism? What grounds do we have for facts and knowledge? How can we know anything in a godless world?
From their view, God is the foundation of knowledge. It's self-justifying - how do they know? God revealed it through special and divine revelation and therefore they cannot be wrong.
Theists usually use logical fallacies, like the one you mention:
Quote:God is the foundation of knowledge. It's self-justifying - how do they know? God revealed it through special and divine revelation and therefore they cannot be wrong.
That is called circular reasoning. So perhaps the question is how does one argue against logical fallacies? They said "God is the foundation of knowledge" but then which God? There is a God of Mahabharata for instance who also left "divine revelation".
So yeah it is a lot of theist shit (fallacies, lies, and delusions) crammed in few sentences so you first have to dismantle it and Discord perhaps doesn't give you enough room for it.
What I've gathered so far is that you CANNOT overtalk Darth. You MUST let him speak and let him finish. THEN you can ask your questions. But on the face of it, the whole thing is unfair because he is the moderator and can kick you out of the chat if he feels you are being disingenuous. But overtalking him is a sure-fire way to get kicked out.
I listen to this jerk every night (I live in South Africa) but I'm oddly addicted because every time I listen I feel like I might be getting closer to figuring out how to dismantle his argument. I don't feel I'm at that point yet, but I only joined Discord a few days ago.
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RE: How to beat a presupp at their own game
March 17, 2021 at 6:56 am
(March 17, 2021 at 6:32 am)Superjock Wrote: (March 17, 2021 at 5:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Theists usually use logical fallacies, like the one you mention:
That is called circular reasoning. So perhaps the question is how does one argue against logical fallacies? They said "God is the foundation of knowledge" but then which God? There is a God of Mahabharata for instance who also left "divine revelation".
So yeah it is a lot of theist shit (fallacies, lies, and delusions) crammed in few sentences so you first have to dismantle it and Discord perhaps doesn't give you enough room for it.
The God used in particular is the Christian God. Do yourself a favour, later today, join the Reformation channel on Discord and listen to their argument. Either an agnostic or an atheist will chime in and then their argument gets deconstructed. You'll see what I mean.
If anyone wants I can send them an invite link to the Reformation server so they can chime in. Atheists have to have each others backs! Even if all of this is for entertainment sake.
(March 17, 2021 at 5:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Theists usually use logical fallacies, like the one you mention:
That is called circular reasoning. So perhaps the question is how does one argue against logical fallacies? They said "God is the foundation of knowledge" but then which God? There is a God of Mahabharata for instance who also left "divine revelation".
So yeah it is a lot of theist shit (fallacies, lies, and delusions) crammed in few sentences so you first have to dismantle it and Discord perhaps doesn't give you enough room for it.
What I've gathered so far is that you CANNOT overtalk Darth. You MUST let him speak and let him finish. THEN you can ask your questions. But on the face of it, the whole thing is unfair because he is the moderator and can kick you out of the chat if he feels you are being disingenuous. But overtalking him is a sure-fire way to get kicked out.
I listen to this jerk every night (I live in South Africa) but I'm oddly addicted because every time I listen I feel like I might be getting closer to figuring out how to dismantle his argument. I don't feel I'm at that point yet, but I only joined Discord a few days ago.
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‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: How to beat a presupp at their own game
March 17, 2021 at 7:32 am
Sorry if I broke terms of service, I clearly didn't read through them very carefully. I wont mention Discord again.
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