Where do atheists get their morality from?

[stephenmills1000]

[in response to Post #60, by DeistPaladin]

Good idea, and I agree. I'll stick to portions of the post for sake of clarity and real estate.

"Sales were $XYZ last month" is an objective statement. "Our salesperson is doing a good job" is a subjective evaluation, one hopefully backed up by objective or empirical evidence.

This much of it I agree with you: that is to say the numbers are going to be the numbers, regardless of whether someone 'likes' them or not.
Whether those numbers are "good" or "bad," are up to subjective interpretation- the numbers still remain the same, not contingent upon anyone's belief about them. As you say as well:

I tend to see any evaluation of anything as "good" or "bad" as being subjective in nature.

Re: God's attributes
I think arguing about God's attributes is an argument for another day, but what you proposed I feel we can work with nevertheless:

The term "God" only means "First Cause" or the mysterious mind behind the [universe]... the only qualities one must attribute to "God" are "conscious" and "powerful enough to get the ball rolling".

Would you agree then that a conscious being able to create the universe, must necessarily have greater power and knowledge than that within the universe which would otherwise be or would be the most powerful and/or most knowledgable? This gives us a being of great power and intelligence; a independent being itself, which humans and all of existence are contingent upon (thus objective). This, to me at least, makes for (literally) a great authority. This was essentially what was meant from:

In examining those attributes then, wouldn't it be altogether rational to deem such an independent being as a viable authority in our lives?

I'm not sure I follow your argument. It might help me if you would clarify which of the three scenarios you believe:

1. God decides what is moral and sets the rules for what is good.
   
2. God evaluates what is moral and wills things because they are good
   
3. God's will is how we define what is good and so God is good because God wills what God wills
   

Pick one and we'll discuss further. If you wish to save time, none of these answers will put theistic morality on a more solid footing than secular morality.

Yes, the Euthyphro Dilemma, though you've added what I would answer in #3- God wills something because he is good. If I were to then be accused of special pleading, or that the concept is incoherent/circular, I could point to an opponent's own subjective appeals to moral values & duties, i.e.: "it's bad to murder in society because murder would be bad for society." My appeal at least has the benefit of an independent law-giver, attributes of which previously stated, all of which lend significant advantage over human attributes.

To use your pedophile priests example, I'm quite outspoken about how wrong that is. To justify my evaluation, I would point out how it victimizes a child and how it harms them both in the short term and long term. The "social contract" is a useful tool in discussing issues like these.
-
Your use of the unforeseen future to justify religions obsession with victimless crimes seems to smack of an argument from ignorance (also known as "The Lord works in mysterious ways" argument). If we were to debate the reasons why blasphemy is morally wrong, the burden of proof would be on you to show reasons to think so.
-
Absolutely not, and this was my point in saying "subjective =/= anything goes".

This issue comes up when atheists condemn certain cruel religious practices, such as "honor killings" as practiced in certain Islamic countries. Such practices are considered "normal" in their culture but I have no problem saying they are morally wrong. To justify that evaluation, I can point to the cruelty of the practice, how it violates the rights of the woman, how it destroys a life and what that life might have brought, how it sows fear into society.

While these activities are not necessarily something you yourself may perpetrate, there lacks any ground or basis to declare them "wrong." The "Social Contract" is indeed a useful tool to discuss this issue- these societies that practice these things you find wrong created these very social contracts! They may say, that the fact that you don't practice them makes you wrong! I'm afraid that, it seems to me, morals being subjective does in fact mean anything goes. "Cruelty," "rights violations," etc., would all be subjective terms- merely your opinion on the matter (and one not apparently shared by the people of that society), and in fact altogther baseless. Perhaps practicing these alleged 'atrocities' does in fact better the society as a whole beyond our immediate vision- how can we possibly say it doesn't? Furthermore, there is nothing at all to say "fear" is a "bad" or "evil" thing- there appears to be such things as "healthy fears."

Unfortunately, "that which increases the sum total of pleasure or reduces the sum total of pain is morally correct," is also unforeseen. It makes a declaration, but it says nothing about how to do so, and frankly, it cannot, as I've pointed out previously. How could it, especially if one says our morality is "evolving?"

So, are morals then personally-relative to everyone (subjective), or are some things in fact really wrong, regardless of what people actually think of those things?

---

I have moral objectives related to staying alive and breeding and taking pleasure in the exercise of my senses and abilities and, remarkably enough, these objectives prove best satisfied by treating other people well rather than by casual murder or abuse. The theist notion that radiating circles of interest lead inexorably to mutual destruction is just plain silly really. Does that really need to be discussed?

My strategies include those I mentioned in that earlier post. You can toss a bit of Kant into the following although I am not trying to be rigorous here.
-
If you can identify that then you can measure the success of strategies toward those objectives using principles of utility and consequences, for example.

While noble objectives, I don't see any objective prescription of what you "ought" to do other than what is only self-identified, making your values and duties arbitrary. Someone may see things differently than you- are they wrong? Couldn't a case be made that foricble copulation is a 'good' method of staying alive, breeding, and taking pleasure in the exercise with regards to one's survival? Just like what happens in the animal kingdom? Especially if it produces a citizen of the world who makes significant beneficial contributions- something that could and would certainly be a measured success. Is the preservation of one woman's liberty worth precluding a benefit of the world? Your view doesn't suggest it is.

In answer to genkaus, Stephen wrote

They are dependent upon that entity yes, but that entity is independent of me, therefore is by definition objective.

Are you really saying, Stephen, that the determinant of whether something is objectively moral depends on it being dependent on something which is independent of you?

Yes.

If so, I can provide you with a perfectly objective morality, not dependent on any mind beyond that you have agreed to follow the rules emerging. To say the only objective morality comes from a deity is false. To say morality comes from a deity serves only the purpose of absolute followership, like any dictatorship, and strips your moral judgement from you leaving you only to follow orders.

You could be right! I await your case. In the meantime I will further my own: Indeed, my moral judgement is stripped of me- judgment is reserved to that which is a more knowledgable, more powerful, more loving, universe-creating, eternal being. Being a fallible and imperfect human I am (end everyone I posit), better the world is for having such an authority rule over mine. Which in part answers your following question(s):

If [you obtain your morality from] the bible, how do you determine what is true or literal, symbolic or false, or human error in the transcription?

If [from] godly commands, by what means do you receive them?

As I have stated, my morals are based on God’s revelation in Scripture. I have good reason to believe that Scripture is a revelation from God, that God’s commands to us supply our moral duties. Moral duties are rooted in the divine commands; values are rooted in God’s nature, therefore objective because they are rooted in God’s commands and nature. Again, I am a fallible, imperfect being, so it follows I won't get everything (maybe anything!) right. But my interpretations of what is right have no bearing whatsoever on God's authority being true. If I get it all wrong, God's good nature and fair judgment does not change in anyway.

Incidentally, chocolate or vanilla, pie or cake, are not moral questions as you well know, Stephen, so why did you pretend such a question was pertinent to moral decisions without a god? Are you being misleading or merely misled?

I fail to see your point here, for what makes your 'moral objectives' (as stated previously), the 'right' ones? How do you justify those beliefs?