FallentoReason 2.0

[The Grand Nudger]

You make it sound like we're special. I don't really think we are. The only way of knowing is if we knew why everything was created, which is something we all know Deism can't answer.

-I- make it sound like that? Didn't you just propose that an immensely powerful cosmic force set everything the way he wanted it, and that we're a product of those desires? Further, I wasn't putting anything forward from my own point of view in that response, just extrapolating on your own. Deism (at least the deism you've proposed) absolutely can answer that question. Godwilledit™

Well, you're right. If we take the "true" definition of evidence, then I would say the order of how the universe works might be evidence for something greater existing outside of our universe. It's not direct evidence for it and I see it more as reasoning. Maybe that makes "GOD" a more philosophical concept than anything, which I think could be the case.

I'd be interested to know why you think so (the order of the universe and "how it works" being evidence for a god). You want this to be more than a recital of bullet points yeah?

Yeah, it could very well be that I'm pretty much seeing something that simply isn't. Being agnostic, I can't be certain but can only rely on my limited abilities to comprehend the universe I live in. I wouldn't know how to be certain that the universe's order isn't something special, you know what I mean? It's a "gut feeling" I can't escape at the moment even if I wanted to.

Isn't? See how you keep smuggling things in at the outset? Nevertheless, I don't personally deal in certainties (you'll have to purchase those on your own) but I do have a habit of asking questions like "why do you thgink that it -is- in the first place. Gut feelings.......if our gut feelings were more reliable Bubba would have survived that brawl he got into with an alligator armed with nothing other other than a spatula and a "kiss the cook" apron.

Going back to the observations, I'll explain again what started giving me the feeling of a Creator; I was driving home from work and the sunset was in front of me. Then it struck me how convenient it is that we have this gas giant exploding and sending off (arguably) the main requirement for life in all directions. Then we have this rock we're sitting on conveniently being pulled towards the gas giant in such a way that it stays basically at the same distance from it at all times. It's a rather special relationship between the two I find. A relationship that made me... appreciate... how well things work out.

Sunsets (and sunrises) are pretty, I'm from Florida. Google "Sunshine Skyway Bridge". That was part of my daily commute for years. Here's the trouble with your example. It's not convenient to have a giant bomb so close to you at all. It sends things off alright, deadly things - all day everyday. The main requirement for life I'm guessing being energy? Maybe if it threw off just enough, and in a manner that wasn't harmful (let alone the manner of it's production being apocalyptic...no other word applies) - then I could be onboard. There's nothing convenient about being tethered to our sun, btw. It's essentially a clock, ticking down to our demise. If nothing else kills us, and we remain here - it will. We don't actually stay "basically the same distance" away from it at all times. Our orbit is elliptical and it has an amusing effect on our world. A large portion of it was licked to us for a very long time for thuis very reason - and once we learned how to hunt and kill other living things so we could drape their skins over us we still had trouble dealing with that effect. Even today we struggle with it -even though we have the skins, and we burn portions of this rock just to keep warm- as those areas that spend time "too far away" are not productive enough (from the point of agriculture" for example) to sustain life. Speaking of distance, just to preempt any goldilocks shenanigans.....have you ever goggled just how large the "goldilocks zone" is btw? It's immense, vast beyond imagining. Look, I appreciate that I don't live on the surface of the sun, or on Pluto...but I wouldn't actually be alive to "not appreciate it" if I didn't. Wat about being happy to have avoided a bullet lends credence to the idea of a god though? It;s not like a god is required to explain any of these things you've mentioned....and again...we don't see any evidence of a gods hand in these things. Unless...we're proposing that a god placed the sun here, the earth there, like a child with so many marbles.......

That could be the case, but I wouldn't have any real way of knowing what the "plan" is as such, so I'm not sure how to respond...

Could it? Why would you have to know the plan at all? I may not know my opponents plan in a game of chess, but as soon as they sacrifice their queen It's a pretty good bet that they wont be putting me in checkmate with her on the next move. It's possible to determine things about a conscious entity without complete knowledge or ESP.

I can't quite think of how my above bit didn't clear up the two things you highlighted before. Could you please elaborate?

Sure, np. You're still going on about things that where "never meant to be", which wouldn't mean much unless there was a "meant" to begin with - evolution having been "random" (in truth it isn't) what does it mean to have "meant" something? You've excused the usage of the word "never" where it didn;t apply, but that particular word isn;t the one that puts the two statements at ods. However, since you brought it up..... Never? No matter what the circumstances? Clearly you've used the word never when it didn't apply, but are you proposing that if we changed the circumstances (could there have been other circumstances, what with god at the wheel willing shit btw?) that drugs would still be bad? Why? Suppose the circumstance was - human beings, due to a quirk of biology, show no adverse effect to any known narcotics? Sounds to me like the situation would have been changed a great deal. I appreciate that you're attempting to express that -due- to our biology (and assuming it remains unchanged) that certain chemicals will have a similar effect on all of us, but the way you've chosen to word it (conceptualize it) appears to have been selected precisely because it allows you a hook with which to claim communication with the divine. Your mind may be fucking with you on this one.

I know that science isn't a conscious mind or anything and that the "should" comes purely from us (or me I guess), but personally I find that knowing something scientific and then assuming this Creator leads me to think "it knows best" and I therefore want to conform to what "works best". It's almost as if this Creator was a buddy at school who gave me the answers to a test and it would be silly for me not to utilise that to my advantage. It might not be the best example because it has some negative connotations, like not being honest, but it's the closest way I can describe why/how I feel like there's a "should" for me.

Is the assumption of a creator required for this?

It's all about the mindset:

Atheism - no purpose to our existence.

Full stop...atheism is not a position with regards to "the meaning of life".

Deism - we are here because of some sort of Creator.

That's a how, not a why. Unless you're offering a why........

Theism - we are here because of [insert myth] and our purpose is [insert relative doctrine] and if you don't follow this then [insert relative threats].

Theism has more claims attached, sure.

With atheism, I pretty much see it as 50/50 as to why someone would/wouldn't do drugs. There's just as many good reasons to do them as reasons for not doing them. With Deism arguably there's no real purpose to us being here either, but assuming that there's a Creator, it makes me want to act the way in which I explained before. I can't explain 100% why that is, but I hope what I wrote before gave you a glimpse of how it fundamentally changes how I interact with the world around me.

You're flirting with the "if there were no god,..it's 50/50 that I'd OD". I doubt that this is so. Whether there are good reasons to do drugs (or not do them) has nothing to do with a god. God is not required for nor does god provide a compelling case for or against either position. I don't see how the assumption of a creator (but no mandate for or against drugs) leads you to either position - nor do I see anything you've offered here having originated from the assumption of a creator, which might explain why you can't explain it from that angle. You seem to have made a decision for yourself, for reasons you find semi-easy to explain without the need of any creator. Drugs are harmful. Could I nitpick that conclusion, sure..but in all honesty, I can't think of a good reason why I would given that its a personal decision you've made for yourself.

I agree that there's many reasons why an atheist wouldn't do drugs, and they're perfectly logical. I think more than anything, this whole drug analogy is more for me than anyone else. I have nothing against how people decide to treat themselves and my Deistic tendencies aren't something that would make me go out and "preach" to people. Like I explained before, it changes how I interact with the world and that's really it. If someone understands what I mean and they see reasons for why I feel this way then that's good for them.

Agreed about the last sentence. I'm simply coming to a different conclusion about the same universe we observe and I really don't know why.

You agree? What happened to the 50/50 shit above? I still don't understand how it changes the way you interact (but how would I know how you interacted before?). Coming to a conclusion without knowing why isn't exactly uncommon. It doesn't make for a very compelling argument in favor of the existence of a god though, you can understand why I might be dissatisfied?

Yep. I fully accept the possibility that I've outdone myself this time and I've got it all backwards. Simply put, it's like the Creator is a positive charge and when one assumes it exists, one becomes negatively charged and one is pulled "in the right direction" whereas the atheist is a neutron who is unaffected and will have valid reasons for whatever direction they decide to take. This feeling is beyond me to be able to put into words.

Positive and negative charges aren't conferred by assumptions. I know it might seem like I'm just picking on you here, but bear in mind that from my end this whole god business just seems to be a flowery way of describing the world and how happy you are to be alive. That's not exactly a creator god...... The "the right direction" is heading towards a place where you seem to be incapable of explaining yourself. You, by sheer power of assumption, just float along "the right way". Meanwhile I tread water. What does this even mean? Ah, again, can't put it into words. In the end, your feelings are your own. I'm not going to give you too much shit for your feelings except to say that they don't require any "creator" except yourself, and that as evidence (or arguments) for a god, they fall horribly short.