Hell

[Edwardo Piet]

Apparently God thinks teaching by example is most effective. If you know of a better way then share it please.

Since God knows everything, and can do anything. Why didn't he simply create humans in the first place so they can only do good, so they didn't need teaching, and why didn't he make life fair, so no one suffers? And so he's actually just?[/quote]

If you thought freedom had value then you needn't have said anything at all.

Of course freedom has value. It's one of the most important factors of well being. And so is absence of pain and horror and killing and death and suffering in general.

So since God is perfect, how come he can't create people so they are all naturally good and happy, and also have plenty freedom to express themselves?

If someone is naturally a saint, does this mean they don't have the freedom to do evil? No. They just don't, because they're incredibly good.

I'm not suggesting that a Good God would make people do Good, I'm not talking about a policeman God. I'm talking about him creating humanity in the first place, so they just naturally are, good. And naturally don't, do evil. And he can determine it so that when he creates them like this, they never go off track. They have the freedom to do evil, but they don't, because they are created to naturally be good. So no freedoms are messed with, and everyone is still good and happy.

Do you honestly believe that a perfect God could not determine a universe where humanity - and other life - lives in a whole lot better world and are a whole lot better and happier, naturally - or IOW, 'freely' - despite the fact he is apparently omnipotent and can do anything, and is apparently perfectly loving, omni-benevolent? (In your view I assume? Arcanus says Christians don't believe God is omni benevolent...do you?).

And since God is omniscient, he knows what humans are going to do, and they are going to do that because he knows they will, so there is no "free will" anyway...just external freedom. Which in a world with a truly loving God, people could still have, they just naturally wouldn't use their freedom to do evil because a truly loving God would just naturally create humans that just didn't want to do evil.

He would program perfection into them, they wouldn't be unfree to do otherwise, they just wouldn't want to, because they wouldn't want to do other than perfect. It's not that they 'couldn't'. If things were different they could. The world would be better and people would be happier.

From out outside perspective, it might seem boring and not worth living in a world programmed by God like that. But that's just it: That's looking from our outside perspective. If an alternative world people really were created by God to be perfect and never do Evil, ever, to be perfectly moral in every way, and perfectly happy and fulfilled in every way: Then by definition their lives couldn't be bleak, or boring or not worth living. By definition it couldn't be, or God would have not created them perfect. It only looks bleak from imperfect outsiders such as ourselves...

EvF