The 'old testament' argument

[A_Nony_Mouse]

What I find difficult to believe is people who can and do study the bible and not read what is clearly stated but rather invents things which are not there.

I assume you are speaking of me, Ok. What I have trouble understanding, are people who say they have a reasoning mind yet can't see the truth of scriptures. Could it be they do see it but would rather ignore the truth and invent things which are not there.

As I observed I cannot understand people who cannot read the words and see what they say. That there are people who defer to an invented "truth" sort of leads me to despair of humanity. As I learned in grade school truth is an abstract noun and that abstract nouns have no real existence. I do not understand people who do not recognize an abstract noun when they see one.

There is no commandment on one of the two important trees. What it does say is at most a warning such as don't drink the stuff under the sink. That statement contains its own punishment, immediate death after eating and is also a lie. The serpent tells the truth.

Here is a fine example of what was stated above, why would God not want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life?

That is a good question. We know "in that day you will surely die" was a lie. Why do you think WITH citations from the text and without supernatural inspiration as to what it really means that is.

This is the reason why, God said they could eat of all the trees in the Garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Sounds to me God gave a commandment for all the trees, even the Tree of Life, in one encompassing commandment. Sounds reasonable don't you think?

Eating of the Tree of Life was obviously permitted unless you are saying living forever was our natural heritage. Commandments are what the words say. That you are claiming supernatural knowledge beyond the words is your problem. The bible story does not claim they had supernatural knowledge. Nor is there any hint of this in the text.

Is it not some kind of sin for you to claim such supernatural knowledge? If it is not supernatural then show the natural source of this "knowledge" of yours. Please do not BS me.

The commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil had to do with spiritual life, eating the fruit would break the spiritual walk Adam and Eve enjoyed with God. They suffered spiritual death immediately, physical death came later, neither of which they had to suffer if they had obeyed the One who gave them life. The serpent's lie did cost them, it cost them an immediate spiritual death and later a physical death as well. Before you go on about that's not right, remember this is a book of spiritual life recorded about those living a physical life.

You are making this up as you go along. Produce the physical evidence to support the bullshit you are posting. If it were not such a clear violation of the rules of posting I would be calling you a lying retard and worse but I do not. I simply ask you to post the physical evidence of that interpretation of the story.

And the reason they are thrown out is very clearly to prevent them from becoming gods by eating the tree of life. It cannot be more explicit but I know people will argue against this so lets just stick with the silly puritanical Augustine invention of what the story means and hear your defense of it. Keep in mind "I do not know the meaning IF any meaning" is always a legitimate answer.

The reason they were banished from the Garden was punishment for disobedience.

That is not what it says. In this case you are clearly lying about what it says and calling you a liar is not a personal attack because the words themselves declare you a liar.

It's apparent the Tree of Life was not going to be removed from the Garden, why, only God knows scripture never tells us.
There's a reason God did not want them to live forever in their present condition, they would have had to suffer in sin for eternity and there would be no remission for their sin. Scripture tell us God said, "they would become like Us and live forever". God simply meant they would live for eternity as God does.

If I did not understand what God has taught me I would say so, as with the Tree of Life, I have no idea why God did not just remove it. I'm going to stay with what I know is the truth of scripture, as for you... well I would guess what ever pleases you, no other nonbeliever has listen yet, as far as I know.

IF you wish to personally defend Augustine then you are required to cite your physical evidence. You are doing nothing but sinfully claiming supernatural knowledge. I can recommend bringing back the stake for folks like you. You are blaspheming to claim such knowledge when you cannot possibly have it unless you are claiming to be a prophet of the Lord. And if not, stop posting crap.

If you want to continue this way, NAME the prophet of the Lord who added so much to the words and who DENIED the cause of expulsion. Who is the prophet who would change the word of the Lord?

Then comes the 10 Commandments, well the Israelites started disobeying in short order.

Excuse but your god got off to a bad start by sending his priests through the tribes to massacre innocent people for worshiping a golden calf BEFORE there was a commandment against it. No, there is no reference to Noatic law. Yes, the people hear the commandments being spoken from the mountain only in de Mille's movie. That kind of god rules only be fear and terror. There is no problem doing anything you can get away with.

You do not see anything wrong with murder, raper, child abuse and ect. as long as no one finds out, you are a scary person. You have no right judging priest with that attitude, what you believe is Ok is far worse than what you believe about those priest and the tribe they are from.

I see a shitload wrong with mass murder and rule by terror which is exactly what Exodus records as the form and manner of the rule of Moses and therefore of his god. I have an absolute right to judge people who murder others for violating a commandment they do not know exists. But you are defending that.

If again you are claiming supernatural knowledge of the meaning of the words then again I propose bringing back the stake.

By the way you've given us the idea you do not know much of the nation of Israel, the priest come from one tribe only, Levi. Ex. 19:9 And the LORD said to Moses,"Behold, I shall come to you in a thick cloud, in order that the people may hear when I speak to with you, and may also believe in you forever. Scripture says they heard God speak.

Why would I give a rat's ass about the mythical nation of Israel or the mythical Moses, Abraham, David, Solomon, Babylon or anything else? I used to pity who believed such BS. Now I simply wish they were close enough to spit on.

The lesson of false worship was made apparent in the 3rd chapter of Genesis, when Adam and Eve worshiped the self by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. At least a couple thousand years of death had already been witnessed because of that act.

Another claim to supernatural knowledge. Bring back the STAKE!

Then comes the law of Moses and again these laws were broken in short order.

There is no record of the people giving Moses the right to create laws. There is only is priestly goon squad who murder people for violating the idiotic laws of Moses. Screw the murderous asshole.

Similarly Moses makes up arbitrary and capricious "laws" that mostly appear as exercises in "how silly can it get?" and then has his priests enforce them by terror tactics. Think secret police and summary execution but call them priests and justice.

This is another fine example of one who says he reasons, yet makes up his own stories, rather than take scripture for what is said. God gave these laws to Moses, Moses did not make them up, this is plainly stated. I think some of the laws which were given sound strange, I however believe they had a purpose for the Israelite nation, not living in that time and place puts us at a disadvantage when it comes to knowing why some laws were so important. The warnings given came from God also.

Gee whiz, mister prophet. Perhaps I was confused by your LIE that they were the laws of Moses. Now you are changing your story and claiming your god was such as imbecile as to have a problem with mixing thread. I was giving you Moses as a demented asshole but you want to declare your god is a demented asshole. Your demented asshole god thinks there is a problem with pork and that rabbits chew cud. One error busts the facade as it did with the Wizard of Oz.

Try being as smart as Dorothy.

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God kept trying to teach, but man just closed his ears saying la,la,la,la,la and kept right own doing it man's way, if we had listened early on it would not have come down to umpteen laws to keep, just one.

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IF that god were trying to teach it would never have let that whacko Moses prohibit mixing kinds of thread and his other insanities. In fact that would god would have publicly defleshed him to restore its reputation among the Israelites/Hebrews/masses oppressed by Moses and his gang of priests.

Please tell us all where you got such ideas, I know it wasn't from the Bible, Moses and the priest did not act the way you believe they did.

Bullshit! You know exactly what happened after Moses came down from the mountain and punished the calf worshipers. Can you not read? Or do you not believe what is written? Or do you have supernatural knowledge of something else "really" happening?

Get your act together and make your case?

God never has to defend himself, the consequences of disobedience are through God's judgement on His people.

The consequences of disobedience, as anyone who has ever read the bible was death, usually by stoning but there were other options. There was no provision for a trial nor witnesses there was only summary execution by priests. Of course if you can show me any fair trial you are free to make a case contrary to what is not in question as the rule of terror by the priests.

That god would also have done something recognizable as humane and rational like declaring slavery a sin of course that would have pissed off the Israelites who forceably brought their slaves with them -- no matter how many times it is translated servants. And how is it humans demonstrated superior morality to this god by banning slavery?

When it comes to things like slavery we suddenly discover the god was parochial and provincial and unable to rise above its times. Why do people need to make excuses for this god just because it is their god? What kind of a god regulates instead of prohibits slavery? BTW, it is chattel slavery with a few exceptions which apply only to other "Israelites." Non-jews be damned.

First thing here, I make no excuses for God, I have not right to judge my Creator and to make excuses would be just that, judging.

Correctly describing in not judging. I have no right to judge Al Qaeda as they have not submitted to my judgement. There is not difference in RIGHT to judge.

That does not change the correct description that your god rules by terror not by love. Your god does what it does. That (you believe) we are stuck with that god does not mean we have to give a shit about it. It is something in the same category as Al Qaeda and every other terrorist organization. The KGB, the SS, no difference. And its rules are just as arbitrary and capricious.

Again you do not respond but claim supernatural knowledge. I want the stake NOW!

The type of slavery you have in mind is man made slavery, ie. slavery that existed in the U.S. and that was sinful and the U.S. paid a heavy price for it with the Civil War, that war was God's judgement for slavery.

I have two choices here. I can simply observe you are an ignorant asshole and idiot or to explain why you are an ignorant asshole and idiot. As I need sleep I will hold off the explanation for later.

The slavery that Israel brought upon the peoples of Canaan was through God's judgement on them.[/quote]

You lie so fluidly when I referred only to the slaves of the Hebrews who were forced to leave Egypt with Moses.

That your god would approve of any form of slavery means it needs to be represented with KKK costume.

The slavery that you do not want people to call servants was to be for no more than 7 years and then they were to be freed and their debt paid. When God puts a people into slavery in the OT it was punishment through just judgement. God is on the moral high round, not man, is you think you are good enough to judge the perfect God... well you are wrong.
As for some of us who read and study scripture we do our best to represent what God teaches us through His word. As for people like you who have no understanding of God or His word I guess you'll keep on making up stories to please yourselves instead of looking for truth.

Your fucking god is a Klansman, period. Maybe it is the grand Kleegle but it is a piece of shit supporter of slavery. Get over it.

BTW, your god lost the power to strike dead. I have had three heart attacks since November and here I am still hassling you idiots who KNOW your god preserved me to do what I am doing.

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You do not see anything wrong with murder, raper, child abuse and ect. as long as no one finds out,
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Actually a do see a problem when some god declares the Israelites can keep all the virgin girls for themselves. I consider that both rape and child abuse which is commanded by your god. Do you want Chapter and Verse? I am certain I can find it just to demonstrate you are lying about your god.

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Upon what basis do you state that your understanding is correct and ours is not? We're not the ones forced into hilarious (and often conflicting) apologetic gymnastics in these discussions.

Fact is, your God came up with a huge list of forbidden activities. Not only were slavery, torture, and rape not among those activities, but all of those activities are positively encouraged by God, directly. Not even Gentle Jesus speaks out against any of these activities at any time, and proactively condones slavery on his own. You can't judge him because, either you're a pussy, or slavery, torture and rape are acceptable according to your Biblically-inspired moral code.

I guess you do not read what I post, I do not think any of this is morally acceptable, I still want judge the Creator, the omniscient God.

Frankly since the Big Bang and all that followed no rational person has given a rat's ass about any "god creator" crap. Omniscient in fine but no one has ever produced evidence for the god much less omniscience. Perhaps you will be the first to do so without falling back upon your supernatural knowledge claims.

Get an education. And if you are tempted by Satan to ask who created the Big Bang I don't know is a valid answer. Assuming a [b]WHO]/b] is claiming supernatural knowledge. Are you a blasphemer or do you claim such knowledge?