Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy

[Love]

He's got a point there. Your faith in the "historical" Jesus is just as unfounded as you claim that those of faith in the bible are. The stories about him are rife with him very clearly not giving anyone the choice to believe in him as any kind of moral, mortal teacher. And indeed, Jesus' many so-called "deeds" are actually pretty fucking malicious if you really read the biblical "accounts" of him.

Never mind that there is no contemporary accounts of anything regarding Jesus to provide any kind of historical proof of Jesus, and that what so-called accounts exist were supposedly written 60 years after the events in which they happened by a bunch of dudes in their late 80s in a time without modern medicine. Do please tell me how many 80-year-olds you know of who have absolutely perfect, crystal-clear memories, and who are not even slightly senile, and then consider that the ones who are are living in this modern age of medicine and scientific understandings of nutrition. The gospel writers were not.

And ideas of human decency and equality actually did exist at the time. The Romans are not known for being the greatest civilization in history for nothing. They were a war-faring civilization, yes, but they were also just, disciplined, and civilized people, with laws and systems that most the developed world bases itself on. Christianity turned the Roman Empire from a society where to be Roman was to be equal to all Romans, to a religious empire that would later instigate the Crusades, the bloodiest and most pointless conflict that the world had seen up to that point, and would go from a civilization that shared and espoused knowledge and philosophy and learning into a close-minded, ignorant society of bigots, witch-burning zealots, and censorship of scientific inquiry.

What "good" did Jesus do to culture that you are talking about, exactly? You keep saying it, but you aren't showing any examples. Are you referring to charity? Or morality? Because both of those existed long before Jesus supposedly existed, and continue to exist in the modern day in individuals who are non-religious in the form of secular-humanists. Jesus had nothing new to say on morality whatsoever. Whatever he said was shit that had been said by others hundreds of years or even millenia earlier.

I recommend the following book by John Shelby Spong: (redacted). Download link provided.

I have a lot of time and respect for Spong because the standards of historical evidence he requires is very much in line with my own. For example, he works very closely with a multitude of PhD scholars who have written peer reviewed journals on the historicity of Jesus. Spong also rejects many of the core ideas that I reject, such as creationism, original sin, literal interpretation of the Bible, prayer, redemptive sacrifice et cetera. Like me, he is much more concerned with the life and consciousness of Jesus.

It seems that you're still skeptical as to whether Jesus actually existed. There is a massive amount of academic historical evidence that he did exist, and even Dawkins eventually conceded this point in his interview with John Lennox.

As regards your query about Jesus' influence on human thinking. I think what is most striking to me is the profound impact he had on those around him. He was obviously outrageously charismatic in that the people around him felt that something of decisive importance had taken place whilst being in his presence; it completely transformed the way they perceived reality. Also, it would be interesting to ascertain where you received your information about the the Roman Empire being a civilised society because from what I have read on the subject, it was, on the whole, an extremely barbaric and brutal society in which acts of infanticide took place regularly; human life was viewed as expendable. Also, early Christianity did catalyse the emergence of hospitals and charities (as we perceive them in the modern era).

Also, another good description by Spong on how I perceive God:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XL8LvaJ9Rc.