Morality

[paulpablo]

I just want to try and clarify what this thread was about again though. (I'm not the greatest at articulating this kinda stuff.....)

- I'm not saying you have to believe in a god to be moral.. In fact, I stated that it appears to me that Atheist(as a whole) are more moral than the theists.
- I'm not denying evolution. And I obviously agree, that in one way or another we evolved some form of morality... and continue to do so.
- I'm not preaching any bible or religion
- I know that some culture/time/subjectivity obviously has a role to play, in what we deem right/wrong.

- I'm just simply asking (what appears to be a fair and rational question, at least to me) the philosophical question:
What does "morality" mean without some sort of mystical "essence" that transcends our own subjective lives?
Is this not a fair question?.. Stop just trying to prove a point or calling me a troll. I'm not the enemy.


Now, I'll try and explain why I don't think my question is as silly as you guys think:

- If morals are purely subjectivity(be it: personal,or family,or cultural,or nation ect.) this would mean that all moral values are ultimately equal.
That what we deem "right/wrong" is actually nothing more than a social construct; created by ourselves, or our family, or our nation, or whatever....
What we deem as "right/wrong" is no more relevant, than what our favorite color is.
- This is moral nihilism. plain and simple. if this is the case.. Then let's at least face the facts

- Secular humanism, or moral realism.. seems to be the only other choice
This is the view I've held all my life, and I'd take it almost all you guys would base your morals around it to.
This says, that we can have objective morality derived from science. (Sam Harris talks about this quite a bit)
this has lead me to "ought-is" problem. Science alone, does not deal with values, it can't tell us what we ought or ought not do. It can only state what "is".
It seems to fall straight back into subjectivism^..

But right/wrong do exist!... The genital manipulation of little girls in the name of Islam is wrong!
(and even though it appears I have no way of logically stating that), I will stand by that assertion %100.

So the conclusion I've come to is somewhat a "mystics" kind of postion

So if you can no longer call yourself an atheist because of this dilemma, do you now believe in a particular god from any religion at all?

What does "morality" mean without some sort of mystical "essence" that transcends our own subjective lives?

What do you mean what does it mean? It means what some people have decided is right or wrong, either via religion or via choices made in their own lives because of empathy, sympathy and other emotions.

I still don't understand why you can no longer call yourself an atheist because of this, even if you believe in a god it's subjective as to which god is real and therefore subjective as to which god is telling you the correct moral values to have.