RE: "I'll pray for you."
June 24, 2013 at 1:37 am
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2013 at 2:08 am by fr0d0.)
(June 23, 2013 at 6:50 pm)Zarith Wrote: I dislike arguing from the dictionary, but you are using your own definition of the word 'supernatural', and dressing up bare assertions in appeals to "the nature of God".
You have got to be kidding me! Those dictionary definitions back up exactly what I'm saying.
And the nature of God is well known. I could justifiably assume you should be aquatinted with that. If you're meaning bare as in unproven naturally, then that would be absurd of course.
(June 23, 2013 at 6:50 pm)Zarith Wrote: Just as an example, by all three of these definitions, the transfiguration of Jesus would be a supernatural event, being an event that (it is claimed) took place in the natural world, but had causes existing outside of the natural world. Do you believe that this event happened? Do you have a naturalistic theory as to what happened?
You still haven't answered the important question. Do we have reason to believe that praying for a particular event in the natural world makes it more likely that this event will happen?
"Believe" I'd the key word there. We cannot prove anything. Why wouldn't you, for example, assume that Mary got pregnant the usual way, and that Jesus was an ordinary bloke? Would you assume that the 3 guys with Jesus on the mountain were hallucinating? They'd had a feast the night before and were still a bit drunk? Jesus had the sun behind him so his clothes glowed. Their eyes we're still bleary so they had double vision? They would have no idea what Moses and Elijah looked like, so how could they name them? The natural explanations are endless. Never ever in any miracles mentioned in the bible could miracles not also have a naturalistic explanation. How do you explain skeptic eye witnesses? Are they lying? Or do they confirm what the bible continually asserts: that you have to believe?
I believe I did answer the question, but let me say it again: We have reason to believe that prayer is answered if we first believe that what the bible says is true. Could we prove that independently from faith: not if supernatural means what those dictionary definitions say that it means.
(June 23, 2013 at 11:43 pm)Esquilax Wrote: You seem to think that this is some magical conversation stopper. You seem to think this somehow justifies your belief in the efficacy of prayer.
I think no such thing. The undeniable logic is elsewhere, I've listed them in my three points.
I'm completely with you that naturalistic explanations should be adhered to.
(June 24, 2013 at 12:12 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:(June 23, 2013 at 5:14 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Prayers are always answered according to Gods will. 100% consistently.
And this differs from gods will in the absence of prayer precisely how?
If supernatural exists then you shouldn't be able to tell.
